AQ Firebird Power Cable

[Gsal]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:02 AM, ctsooner said:

Another great thread.   For what I paid for the cords, I could never do an upgrade to Kento's. I wish as that's my dream speaker, lol.  I got the Dragon used as well as a couple of the Hurricane's, so I was able to afford them.  They have made a full component upgrade if you would.  I listened extensively before purchase.  At the time, it was the best bang for my buck.  The M5's are a different situation and I'm sure the new preamp Richard releases will have a similar effect. it's why I'm selling the Hurricanes (have to be able to afford the new pre).  The Dragon stays right where it is though as it upgrades the Brinkmann Nyquist and everything else plugged into the Niagara.

I had a Paul Hines, LPS.  He's considered the best designer of outboard LPS's (or at least he has a cult following).  I have a buddy who manufactures and designs some of the best DAC's I've heard and owned sell me his.  It's a beast of an LPS and it made a huge difference in lowering the noise floor on the DAC (I tried two others that made a decent difference, but not even close to the Hines).  

I think Richard put it best when he says that if you design the power supply properly from the get go, that you will get a lesser effect with a cord upgrade.  

I guess that's what I was trying to say. "They have made a full component upgrade if you would".

I might have to disagree with RV, however, about correct power supply design negating the effect of a power cord. Although I haven't heard any other amps in my system I don't think that my Aesthetix Atlas Signature is any slouch in that department. Power supply design is a very important aspect of Jim White's products. Just sayin'.

[BKDad]

First, with regard to Ayre's power cord selection, just what cord should they choose?  Since every system behaves differently in this regard (more on this in a bit) and everybody has personal preferences in what they find meaningful in sound reproduction, there is no right answer.  

~~~

Now, about those system differences and power supplies.  The underlying physics of it all has been pretty well defined for quite a while.  It's the solutions to the situation that get mucky, as is often the case.

I'll refer you to these two papers, since the concepts are explained pretty well there without all sorts of math or any of that.

Whitlock AES

Jensen Transformers on CMRR

There are diagrams in both of these that show how common mode currents pass through the AC mains connections for the system and then through the equipment power supplies, to complete an unwanted current loop.  So, if the power supply is able to completely reject any common mode signal currents, there is no loop.  That ain't so easy to do.  

Keep in mind that the power cables are part of this loop.  How they pass unwanted common mode signal currents is probably of far, far greater consequence than how they pass the usual 50 or 60 Hz AC mains currents.  In addition, since they are part of a physically large loop, how they couple to and from other parts of the common mode current loop matters, too.  How they couple to other nearby loops is also a consideration.  That's just innocent and apparently simple power cables!  Think about the more complicated pieces involved in a system and how different they all are.

What most of us are trying to attain with our home audio systems is a transparent, low distortion, and low noise reproduction of (often completely artificial) recordings made in a studio or a live venue.  50 or 60 Hz hum is just one of the artifacts we don't like.  Over the years, most everybody has focused on ground loops being about this hum.  In truth, there's lots of higher frequency common mode currents transmitted via "ground loops", many even far above the usual audio frequency range, that affect sound quality.  It's a challenging problem, with lots of solutions.  Most of the solutions are partial solutions at that, so you often need to apply more than just one.

[Stringreen]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:42 AM, BKDad said:

Full disclosure #1 - I've never heard these AQ cables, nor am I ever likely to.   So, I have no opinion on them.

Full disclosure #2 - The cable  I'm about to suggest was the work of a very long time friend of mine.  He patented the design, but that patent expired more than 10 years ago.  He no longer is involved, at least to my knowledge.  He has been doing other things outside of audio since he designed the cable.

~~~~~

This is a classic cable design, over three decades old.  But, it has worked really, really well for me.  Originally it was sold as the Tiffany TPC-60.  Tiffany Electronics Group is long, long gone, of course.  XLO started selling it after Tiffany closed.  Very different price category than the AQ product.  

Tiffany TPC-60

Other vendors sell this, too, but Parts Connexion has the nicest photo.  🙂 

In my Tiffany samples, I replaced the original connectors with some more modern Furutech products.  My cables were made before high end AC connectors were a thing.  I don't know what connectors XLO uses these days.

Thanks for the link....very kind post.....If I needed one I'd surely experiment.   

[Richard Vandersteen]

7 hours ago, Gsal said:

I guess that's what I was trying to say. "They have made a full component upgrade if you would".

I might have to disagree with RV, however, about correct power supply design negating the effect of a power cord. Although I haven't heard any other amps in my system I don't think that my Aesthetix Atlas Signature is any slouch in that department. Power supply design is a very important aspect of Jim White's products. Just sayin'.

It is OK to disagree with me as I have no experience with Aesthetix gear.  I was referring to my experience which is never finial or all-inclusive based mostly on our amplifiers.  RV

[Gsal]

3 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

It is OK to disagree with me as I have no experience with Aesthetix gear.  I was referring to my experience which is never finial or all-inclusive based mostly on our amplifiers.  RV

Understood. No problem.

[Ipspam]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:57 AM, BKDad said:

First, with regard to Ayre's power cord selection, just what cord should they choose?  Since every system behaves differently in this regard (more on this in a bit) and everybody has personal preferences in what they find meaningful in sound reproduction, there is no right answer.  

~~~

Now, about those system differences and power supplies.  The underlying physics of it all has been pretty well defined for quite a while.  It's the solutions to the situation that get mucky, as is often the case.

I'll refer you to these two papers, since the concepts are explained pretty well there without all sorts of math or any of that.

Whitlock AES

Jensen Transformers on CMRR

There are diagrams in both of these that show how common mode currents pass through the AC mains connections for the system and then through the equipment power supplies, to complete an unwanted current loop.  So, if the power supply is able to completely reject any common mode signal currents, there is no loop.  That ain't so easy to do.  

Keep in mind that the power cables are part of this loop.  How they pass unwanted common mode signal currents is probably of far, far greater consequence than how they pass the usual 50 or 60 Hz AC mains currents.  In addition, since they are part of a physically large loop, how they couple to and from other parts of the common mode current loop matters, too.  How they couple to other nearby loops is also a consideration.  That's just innocent and apparently simple power cables!  Think about the more complicated pieces involved in a system and how different they all are.

What most of us are trying to attain with our home audio systems is a transparent, low distortion, and low noise reproduction of (often completely artificial) recordings made in a studio or a live venue.  50 or 60 Hz hum is just one of the artifacts we don't like.  Over the years, most everybody has focused on ground loops being about this hum.  In truth, there's lots of higher frequency common mode currents transmitted via "ground loops", many even far above the usual audio frequency range, that affect sound quality.  It's a challenging problem, with lots of solutions.  Most of the solutions are partial solutions at that, so you often need to apply more than just one.

Very interesting.  I own one of Bill Whitlocks ExactPower Sp-15A symmetrical power balanced out devices. Everything goes through it. Last night your post got me thinking. I've been trying to figure out the relevant question to ask re: best utilization of the distributor and Ps audio conditioner and PS audio Juicebar 2 distributor. And where to put the 2 AQ tornados. Rest are AQ monsoons.

As for power cables, I still haven't found a better placement than from the wall to ExactPower unit and from power unit to power amp for the best cables

Nice cables are nice for equipment to equipment connections, but the structure of the equipment connections and interactions is very important as well in my experience. With the music signal, there aren't options. It goes DAC, pre,  power (or similar). With power though, there is the potential to pick which paths components share and dont share, and which paths/components benefit the most from better cables. Its quite a detective game to figure it all out.

[Gsal]

11 hours ago, Ipspam said:

Very interesting.  I own one of Bill Whitlocks ExactPower Sp-15A symmetrical power balanced out devices. Everything goes through it. Last night your post got me thinking. I've been trying to figure out the relevant question to ask re: best utilization of the distributor and Ps audio conditioner and PS audio Juicebar 2 distributor. And where to put the 2 AQ tornados. Rest are AQ monsoons.

As for power cables, I still haven't found a better placement than from the wall to ExactPower unit and from power unit to power amp for the best cables

Nice cables are nice for equipment to equipment connections, but the structure of the equipment connections and interactions is very important as well in my experience. With the music signal, there aren't options. It goes DAC, pre,  power (or similar). With power though, there is the potential to pick which paths components share and dont share, and which paths/components benefit the most from better cables. Its quite a detective game to figure it all out.

I would suggest the following whitepaper be read as well.

https://www.audioquest.com/resource/1138/Power-Demystified-whitepaper-8-23-18.pdf