Ayre QB-9 Twenty

[ctsooner]

16 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

A used Codex is now under $1K.- Which is pretty amazing considering it's performance.

 

And, I was unaware of the new software upgrade. My comments were based upon a conversation I had last year, so things might have changed significantly since then.

B

According to Johnny, it’s now in the reference category. I just don’t k ow if he’s ever heard the new Brinkman. (Trying to get him to audition that and the top Playback Designs that was out of my range as there were no used ones). 

[BKDad]

Here's the thing...

Right now, there's at least one used QB-9 for sale for less than $1K on Audiogon.  I didn't even check AudioMart or any of the other places.  For another $1500, Ayre will upgrade this to what is arguably a state of the art product.  

So, why screw around?

Yeah, some other DACs may have this or that feature - like MQA playback - or be more attuned to what any one listener wants.  Everybody is 100% entitled to pursuing their hobby the way they want to, at least according to me.   But, as Richard says about having five rock solid recordings that you refer to when evaluating things, not constantly shuffling the deck in components has a lot of merit, too.   A good scientific investigation principle is to only change one variable at a time.  A good pragmatic principle is to find something you like and stick with it.

[Moose]

Fun with stereo stuff.  I sent my old QB-9 to Ayre for a repair and an upgrade to Twenty status.  I fired it up today.  All sounds great so far.  The Twenty version recognizes HDCD encoding, which is a big deal for me.  I have hundreds of HDCDs.  It also sees it if you rip the disc to a computer.  Or, if you stream the recording from a place like Tidal or Qobuz.  The repair cost $1530, including shipping.  It took about 4 months because the had issues with their chip source.  The setup was just for a quick trial, so pardon the mess.  So far I've tried 16/44.1, HDCD, 24/48, and 24/96 files and it worked flawlessly.

[nrenter]

Oh, man…I’m really hoping my upgrade takes less than 4 months. 

[Holmz]

Are those speakers Harbeths?

I have heard people rave about them, but never had been wishing ear shot of a pair.

(any good?)

[Moose]

Yes, they are Harbeth 7ES-3s.  They were my sons.  I've spent a bunch of time with these and the Super HL5+ speakers which he now has.  It depends on what you like.  Harbeths tend to make everything sound good - not a bad trait.  They do respond to the electronics that drive them, so they are revealing in that sense.  They are not phase and time coherent, which makes it pretty easy to place them, other than accounting for room modes.  If you like phase and time coherent speakers, you'll grow tired of the Harbeths.  That's why I have the Vandersteens.  

[ctsooner]

Thanks for sharing about the QB9/20. So glad they do that for you guys. I love Ryan and his staff. Wonderful folks. 
 

I too love Harbeths. I could easily live with them if I didn’t have Vandersteen’s. I’ve heard their top anniversary 40’s running with the top MSB electronics and the Audioquest 7000 and all dragon cords and cables etc.  

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

On 3/8/2022 at 7:30 PM, TomicTime said:

it was a bit of snark, forgive me….  Charlie poking the measurements crowd….

This was first optioned on the first SONY SACD player long ago.  RV

[BKDad]

On 3/8/2022 at 8:34 PM, TomicTime said:

There is besides a wicked good sense of humor a “ measure “ and “ listen “ switch on the Ayre QB-9…..

I wonder why ?

Ooh!  Ooh!  Ooh!  Mr. Kotter!

It seems that some reviewers and their measurement teams are fixated on flat frequency response to 20 KHz.  The Listen filter setting doesn't give exactly that.  Instead, it is based on what sounded best to the design team.  The Measurement setting is dead flat.

Now, why would you want to run something in the mode that sounds better when you can run it the way it measures better?

[Stringreen]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:54 PM, BKDad said:

My experience/observation is that film capacitors continue to change for weeks after DC bias is applied to them.  Yeah - weeks.  So far, Teflon caps have taken the longest.  It makes me wonder about printed circuit boards.  I wish I could figure out how to measure this.

Every AQ cable I've owned with DBS came already charged.  When I changed out the old Carbon DBS packs in favor of the newer DBS Level X packs, it took about a day for the sound to settle down.  But, the Level X packs bettered the Carbon packs in terms of sound quality.  I can't explain why, so I won't even try to.

It seems likely that both cables and caps used in crossovers and high pass filters need a while to charge the dielectric properly.  Shipping time on a truck and time sitting in a storeroom probably count toward that  (Shipping from my own factory to the listening room is about 45 seconds - definitely not enough.)

yes indeed...my Ayre equipment sounds better a week later without shutting them off.   I know they have a trickle charge when off, but......

[Holmz]

8 hours ago, BKDad said:

Ooh!  Ooh!  Ooh!  Mr. Kotter!

It seems that some reviewers and their measurement teams are fixated on flat frequency response to 20 KHz.  The Listen filter setting doesn't give exactly that.  Instead, it is based on what sounded best to the design team.  The Measurement setting is dead flat.

Now, why would you want to run something in the mode that sounds better when you can run it the way it measures better?

I think it has to do with minimum phase versus symmetric filters. (Found it)

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ayre-acoustics-qb-9-usb-dac-measurements

Quote

A rear-panel DIP switch allows the QB-9's digital reconstruction filter to be set two different ways, which Ayre calls Listen and Measure. Measure is said to resemble the minimum-phase "apodizing" filter used by Meridian in their 808i.2 CD player, which I reviewed in April; the Listen filter has been optimized by Ayre's engineering team to give much of the benefit of the apodizing filter, but with less ringing. For reference, fig.1 shows the impulse response (footnote 2) of a D/A processor that uses a conventional linear-phase digital reconstruction filter. Ringing can be seen both preceding and following the impulse; the former is unnatural and is said by some researchers to be one reason for so-called "digital" sound. Fig.2 shows the QB-9's impulse response set to Measure. All the ringing now follows the impulse, though it is, overall, higher in level than in fig.1. It is indeed similar to the Meridian 808i.2's impulse response (fig.2 in that review). Fig.3 shows the QB-9's Listen impulse response; again, there is no ringing before the impulse, but there are just two cycles of ringing after it, and these are well damped.

 

[TomicTime]

it’s all about the necessary filters…. and how to implement them……

[ctsooner]

11 minutes ago, TomicTime said:

it’s all about the necessary filters…. and how to implement them……

Ringing is deadly to digital sound. My friend puts in limitless hours to perfect his digital software to lower also jitters as much as they can. It’s amazing to switch my server on the fly for all three jitter settings. The lowered jitter setting always sound best, but many seem to not notice timing errors and like the distortion associated with most digital. 

[TomicTime]

one clue is the hardcore analog guys implementation of digital…. Brinkmann, Ayre, Aesthetix, etc….

BadA clocks, Faraday cages, FFGA, custom filters, killer analog stages ( the A in DAC ! )  beefy linear power supplies, ……

[ctsooner]

2 hours ago, TomicTime said:

one clue is the hardcore analog guys implementation of digital…. Brinkmann, Ayre, Aesthetix, etc….

BadA clocks, Faraday cages, FFGA, custom filters, killer analog stages ( the A in DAC ! )  beefy linear power supplies, ……

In addition to all of that, they are using top teflon caps where needed (some go the SuperCap route and some do some of the other big names.  Vishay resistors etc...  Just so much goes into a great DAC.  That includes the newest and best USB hubs and the internal optical conversion and back for the ethernet ports.  The other major deal is the internal wiring and lay out. That's a HUGE deal that most folks don't understand.  Even many of the milled out of a solid billet DAC's have shortcomings vs their thick walled, aluminum boxes. Auralic uses this copper plates to create a box in box for RF/EMI rejection and it sure seems to work (some of the best digital value products you can buy (the value part is misleading to some, but their top Vega DAC competes nicely with many costing twice as much.  Sorry to go on and one, but there is just so much that goes into GREAT digital (Richard is rolling his eyes and whispering that there is NO great digital, ha!!!).

 

[BKDad]

And, some of my friends would call a lot of that "rouge à lèvre à un porc."

It's often better to get the design right in the first place rather than seasoning it to taste.  

YMMV, of course, but this is the Vandersteen Audio web forum.  Vandersteen has a long reputation for getting it right to start, at least at the price point and with the materials and insight available at the time.  

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, BKDad said:

And, some of my friends would call a lot of that "rouge à lèvre à un porc."
… 

 

I suppose that the expression “spats on a pig”, should be “spats on a hog” then?

 

4 hours ago, ctsooner said:

... My friend puts in limitless hours to perfect his digital software …

Pete, would you mind asking what he is using?
I have an Octo Research DAC8 Pro and want to do an active XO, and FIR based group delay comp.
Likely on an Intel NUC.
We can go to PM…

[TomicTime]

how do you plan to control driver resonance peaks in the electronic crossover ? 

[ctsooner]

14 hours ago, Holmz said:

 

I suppose that the expression “spats on a pig”, should be “spats on a hog” then?

 

Pete, would you mind asking what he is using?
I have an Octo Research DAC8 Pro and want to do an active XO, and FIR based group delay comp.
Likely on an Intel NUC.
We can go to PM…

feel free to reach out if you want.  My friend owns a company that makes servers and streamers that are very high end.  The problem has been terrible service (no time to do anything correctly) and hardware that isn't designed the best (birds next insides).  He finally took my advice adn is having them redesigned by engineers etc..  The new models should sound even better, but they are as good as it gets with digital software. He's bringing over an all in one device that will cost less than 2k I think and it has DAC, streamer, wireless etc.. all built it.  It's all based on the reprogramed software.  I'll find out next week how much the software does.

As for component upgrades within an existing design, just audition the Aesthetix products from base up to their TOTL upgrade for the device.  You can easily hear a nice upgrade within the same product.  I'm sure Richard auditions components and finds better sounding ones all the time and makes said upgrades and never talks about it.  It has to be since his design doesn't change unless he does what he did with teh newest 2's.  JMHO.  

I"m also not saying that upgrading internal Components always makes a positive difference.  Again, it's the design as BK mentioned and finding out WHICH components affect the SQ and upgrading only those as needed.  It's always about sound engineering principle though.  I do wish I knew more about the technical side of things like so many of you as I'd love to know 'why'.

[BKDad]

27 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

I do wish I knew more about the technical side of things like so many of you as I'd love to know 'why'.

Be careful of what you wish for...

[ctsooner]

18 minutes ago, BKDad said:

Be careful of what you wish for...

LOL...I get it. I really do.  I understand the basics and concepts.  I love reading your posts along with Richard, Jim's, Holmz and so many others who do understand engineering principles. I can read and understand about 80% of the tech stuff you post.  That said, the older I get, the more I appreciate what I already have, what I will be getting going forward and most of all the music.

Some are into gear, some into the music, many into both.  I'm in the both category for sure.  I just love reading the posts, opinions and then going to listen to my system and streaming all the great music folks share on the site (in the music threads).  I have grown to love this. small community as you are all so respectful of someone like me who has cognitive issues, makes some silly statements at times,  but tries to be respectful even though I have such strong opinions as I listen to a ton of gear and love to share my personal thoughts, but also love reading counter thoughts as we all hear so differently.  That's why Thiel AND Vandesteens we always great products, but some like the extra energy on top.  Both great designs, just different implementations.  Audio in a nutshell for me.

[Holmz]

2 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

LOL...I get it. I really do.  I understand the basics and concepts.  I love reading your posts along with Richard, Jim's, Holmz and so many others who do understand engineering principles. I can read and understand about 80% of the tech stuff you post.  That said, the older I get, the more I appreciate what I already have, what I will be getting going forward and most of all the music.

…

I’ll send you a like to some of “Youngest Daughter’s” YouTube video links on her research.
I spent hours on Wiki and cracking open the physics books, and it was not where near 80% even after all that.
She says, “Pops, how many times do I have to explain this stuff to you?”

We live in a good age where we can understand much of what Maxwell, Newton, Einstein (etc.) did at a working level. And almost everyone can read and write, so we are are very blessed compared to centuries ago.

While we can understand much of it, we do not have all the depth of the nuance… but we have RV here for his part of the science! 😎

[ctsooner]

Watching ins second. Thanks for the share. My oldest is a physics major (and also a degree in entrepreneurship). I’ll see if I understand anything lol

[Steve Edwards]

2 hours ago, ctsooner said:

I have grown to love this. small community as you are all so respectful of someone like me who has cognitive issues, makes some silly statements at times

"Oh don't be so hard on yourself Judge, you're a tremendous slouch"   :-))

[Richard Vandersteen]

3 hours ago, Holmz said:

This would be for a set of non-Vandy speakers.
But basically I have no anechoic chamber, so I would test them outside to get a response without echos.
Then do the amplitude and phase using some FIR techniques.

So any resonance in the driver or box would be an amplitude correction.
And the tweeter and woofer would be phase aligned.

It may not work, or it may be a lot of work, but know a little DSP theory.

 

 

Well, if I am not mistaken… it has been since ‘77 that the cabinet resonances were low, and the diffraction off of the “baffle” were largely addressed.
That leaves driver linearity and breakup mode, and cross overs.
We all know about the pistonic drivers.
The ScanSpeak, Seas and Vifa (and other drivers like Purifi) have linear motors with low distortion.
So the XO remains.

It is hard to make a really good passive XO, and easy to make a so so digital active XO, but harder to make a very good digital XO.
And a digital XO is not really easy to integrate into a largely analogue system.

Which makes the approach of the Vandy system seem ‘well thought out’ with the LPF that tapers off the sub range, and the pots to control the sub output, and easy to integrate into an existing analogue stack.

===============

I offered Eldest Daughter a TT, and maybe I would upgrade, but she got a bottom of the line set up.
We got her a small bookshelf speaker.
And she just ordered an AIYAMA A07 ($70) Class-D which does 80 w/ch.
I’ll probably try one of those AIYAMA or a Topping PA3s for surround amps. I might use the AIYAMA for the center channel, as it can go to 400W using a 48V rail, just to ensure it has enough headroom.

So it is all bottom budget stuff, but it will be a good first system.

Holmz, please keep this DIY discussion  for another place.   This forum is to be focused on Vandersteen products, their use and optimization.  Some come to this site for help optimizing their systems and may get confused by any information that does not relate to our speakers,  equipment recommendations with incredible synergy, room treatments, placement and very importantly new and old music.  Thanks again to all for keeping this interesting, informative, non political, non religious and focused on the joy of music.  RV