SUB THREE (Pair) - Ordered

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, Schuesmp said:

Running the SUB THREE out of phase (i.e., with polarity reversed) did the trick. After redoing the EQ, each of the 11 frequency bands is within 25% of target. More importantly, the SUB THREE is contributing to an overall full, balanced sound.

My sincere thanks to Holmz and Richard Vandersteen for the assistance. 

Thanks, and now you know they are not phase correct.

RV

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, Schuesmp said:

My sincere thanks to Holmz and Richard Vandersteen for the assistance. 

No worries mate.
These problems are much easier to see when one is not too close to them.

 

7 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Remember most of the world thinks phase does not matter!

Yeah - but it perplexes me as to how one can claim to replicate the sources, when the step function and impulse response are obviously jacked up.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Holmz

[Schuesmp]

1 hour ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Thanks, and now you know they are not phase correct.

RV

Ha! I saw this coming.

[Holmz]

But ignoring the obvious… time-n-phase…

Is it a major improvement in the bass, and a no/minor/major improvement elsewhere?
Is it better for some music more than other music?

[TomicTime]

look for, aka listen for the midrange quality bump created by the loafing zone your BAT amp now enjoys !

congrats !

I have audio friends in Portland, they share your enthusiasm for the new Vandy dealer….

[Schuesmp]

On 4/22/2023 at 8:42 PM, Holmz said:

But ignoring the obvious… time-n-phase…

Is it a major improvement in the bass, and a no/minor/major improvement elsewhere?
Is it better for some music more than other music?

Holmz: I am in the process of evaluating, tweaking, evaluating, tweaking, and so on. Furthermore, the SUB THREE and M5-HPB crossovers have only a handful of hours on them, so they are still settling in. I like what I hear, but I intend to move the SUB THREE around the room more to achieve optimal balance. 

[GdnrBob]

2 hours ago, Schuesmp said:

but I intend to move the SUB THREE around the room more to achieve optimal balance

I guess you can achieve a more optimal placement, but I thought the built in equalizer minimized the need for this.

Bob

[Schuesmp]

35 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

I guess you can achieve a more optimal placement, but I thought the built in equalizer minimized the need for this.

Bob

Interestingly, from placement to placement, and after redoing the EQ each time, the SUB THREE interacts with the room differently and delivers a slightly different sense of energy to the listening chair. I think it's worthwhile to experiment and land where it sounds and feels best.

[GdnrBob]

YMMV

I guess that is the phrase that might fit.

Every room is different, but it would be interesting if there were correlations regarding placement. It would take a lot of data points as well as a good computer.

B

[Holmz]

3 hours ago, Schuesmp said:

Interestingly, from placement to placement, and after redoing the EQ each time, the SUB THREE interacts with the room differently and delivers a slightly different sense of energy to the listening chair. I think it's worthwhile to experiment and land where it sounds and feels best.

^That^ analysis, decision tree, and measurement set, might be an interesting thing to post.

And how do you find using that AudioTools S/W that you mentioned?

[Schuesmp]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

And how do you find using that AudioTools S/W that you mentioned?

I like AudioTools - intuitive operation and reasonably accurate. I primarily use the SPL Meter, the Real Time Analyzer, the Fast Fourier Transform, and the Signal Generator.

[Holmz]

I think it does RT60 as well.

[Schuesmp]

31 minutes ago, Holmz said:

I think it does RT60 as well.

Yes - I can add gated noise RT60 for $36.

[Schuesmp]

At the moment, with the single SUB THREE placed just behind and to the outside of the left Audio Physic loudspeaker, I am achieving excellent subjective and measured results, EXCEPT for around 100 Hz, which is down about 6 dB from target. Tomorrow I will try one setting lower on the M5-HPB crossovers and see (hear) what happens. 

[Holmz]

The other way to do it is to put the (second) sub at the listening position and do the ,mic measurements at various places around the room.
Reciprocity  means that switching the sub to that position will be the same.

Having just 1 null is pretty outstanding, and the second would surely fill it in.
Getting a couple of positions to be nice is a bit harder than 1 position, but it seems like you have a good spot chosen so far.

[Schuesmp]

18 hours ago, Holmz said:

The other way to do it is to put the (second) sub at the listening position and do the ,mic measurements at various places around the room.
Reciprocity  means that switching the sub to that position will be the same.

Having just 1 null is pretty outstanding, and the second would surely fill it in.
Getting a couple of positions to be nice is a bit harder than 1 position, but it seems like you have a good spot chosen so far.

Solid recommendation, Holmz. I will do that.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Schuesmp

[Holmz]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:06 AM, GdnrBob said:

I guess you can achieve a more optimal placement, but I thought the built in equalizer minimized the need for this.

Bob

 

Rob - In my understanding…:

• If one takes the second sub and stacks it on top of the first one, then it is likely that the settings would be identical.
• If one moves the single sub to another place in the room it is likely that the settings will need to change.
• If both subs in the room are in places with the same null, then neither can fill in the hole.
• Ideally both subs are in places where there is not a lot of nulls.
• Ideally one sub can provide good base for the listening position, and two or more subs can expand the base to have other positions also become more balanced.

There is probably a lot more to it…

Edited April 26, 2023 by Holmz

[Schuesmp]

With my phase cancellation issue rectified, I really appreciate the SUB THREE. Like with my Quatro Wood CT in a different system, the 11-band room EQ incorporated in the SUB THREE is very effective. I enjoy listening to music more with the single SUB THREE in play than I did with two competent and more expensive REL subwoofers. Naturally, the pair of REL subwoofers produce more bass, but the single SUB THREE produces better bass in my listening environment. This is what I sought.

[GdnrBob]

7 hours ago, Holmz said:

There is probably a lot more to it…

Yeah, I guess so, but having the equalizer should make moving the subs around less important. Though I do get the idea that putting them in the 'best' locations should help them work even better than just putting them in a convenient spot.

B

[Holmz]

Yeah @GdnrBob but they almost all have filters to knock down the peaks.
Mostly digital filters, but the Vandys use analogue filters.

I am not sure how one would would do it without a filter, unless I guess, the room was treated to the point that the peaks were not present.
But I doubt that would work

[GdnrBob]

@Holmz, I am confused by your post. I was referring to the Vandy equalizer, not a digital filter.

B

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

@Holmz, I am confused by your post. I was referring to the Vandy equalizer, not a digital filter.

B

Yeah - but… one needs to filter!

1. With the vandy solution (analogue filter)
2. or a digital solution (aka DSP).
3. The 3rd option is no filter, but that is not likely to work.

The DSP is probably just as good as the frequency is low, so where the real beauty of the vandy filter is at (IMO) is reducing the load to the main speakers.
It is pretty clever, but at this point it seems sort of like a no brainer solution… because we are used to the beauty now.

[Bruskie]

This post has been so very informative and a real pleasure to read. Thank you everyone for this great thread.

On 4/27/2023 at 11:00 PM, Holmz said:

he DSP is probably just as good as the frequency is low, so where the real beauty of the vandy filter is at (IMO) is reducing the load to the main speakers.
It is pretty clever, but at this point it seems sort of like a no brainer solution… because we are used to the beauty now.

@Holmz yes, hindsight is often 20-20

[Schuesmp]

9 hours ago, Bruskie said:

This post has been so very informative and a real pleasure to read. Thank you everyone for this great thread.

On 4/27/2023 at 10:00 PM, Holmz said:

Good group of folks here.

[Steve Edwards]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:36 AM, Schuesmp said:

REL subwoofers produce more bass, but the single SUB THREE produces better bass in my listening environment.

A more engaging option, most assuredly