Speaker cables you like/dislike with Vandersteen

[GdnrBob]

 

1 hour ago, ctsooner said:

 I didn't even know they were allowed to make lead base solder for any reason.

Funny, but I just viewed a PS Audio youtube video and Paul showed a big bar of solder, which he claimed had lead in it.

Bob

[ctsooner]

It would be illegal for him to use it on a product to sell wouldn't it?  The fact that he even shows it seems pretty bad to me.

[DrumTemp]

I worked in electronic fabrication for a national laboratory for 25+ years...all of our solder was 60/40 tin/lead. Yes, lead is bad, BUT it is so easy to work with! What Vandersteen is doing is old school (a good thing 🙂 ), but still being done : For flight tests, our pc boards were conformal coated as you see in the video. For bench test boards, we used solder mask (the green film you see on most all commercial pc boards).

[ctsooner]

thanks for sharing. Interesting stuff to say the least.  

[GdnrBob]

Ya learn something new, every day.☺️

bob

[Drew769]

I started off with my initial Vandersteen 2CE Sigs with Kimber 4TC, in a single run with jumpers.  About a year later, I had the wires redone to add a second set of 4TC in a shotgun biwire.  I could immediately hear the differences in the biwire.  The sound became more open, more effortless.  At the time it was difficult to wrap my head around paying for essentially two runs of cable for each speaker, but the sonic improvements were clearly evident.

I then moved up to the 8TC, finding a pure-owned set that was already a double run in biwire shotgun configuration.  I’d say the level of improvement between the 8TC  and the 4TC was less than the switch from single run to biwire.

 At this point I switched to my Treos, and moved the 8TCs over to the new speakers.  I thought the sound was somewhat etched with the Kimbers and the Treos.  John Ruttan had said that the much higher resolution of the Treos was exposing the stranded design of the Kimbers, and he suggested moving to solid core conductors.  For some reason at the time, I was reluctant to move to AQ.  Instead, I had Grover Huffman make me a set his solid -core, ribbon speaker cables in double run biwire.  They were very inexpensive when compared with the retail prices of Kimber or AQ, but they have a very open and airy feel to them.  I really liked what they did for the Treos, helping recapture some off that airiness that I had missed from my 2CE Sigs.  I wouldn’t say the Grovers were overly bright, but on the spectrum I would say that they tend to be on the brighter side of open, airy and neutral.  If you ever feel things getting dark and closed in, the Grovers could be your ticket for opening the aural window.  Their interconnects are very good as well.  Of note is that recording engineer Steve Hoffman really stands behind Grover’s designs.

After a very brief hiatus from Vandersteen (and having sold my biwire Grovers), I bought my current pair of 5As right as the world was shutting down last year (2020).  The prior owner offered me a good deal on a double run of 12TC, but given my past experience with the Treos and the 8TC, I decided to pass on this and instead picked up 20 feet of AQ Rocket 33 cable - enough to self-terminate in two double runs on 5 ft each.  I have to say - I was really impressed with how great $200 worth of bulk AQ cable sounded.  I found the Rocket 33 to be very neutral, very smooth and not the least bit bright.  It was the perfect, “get out of the way” kind of conduit for the 5As.  Probably two months into the pandemic, I happened upon a double run biwire set of Audience AU24 cables - a brand I have been looking to try for many years.  They are very expensive, premium cables, and almost universally praised with every attribute you can think of.  Their design kind of flies in the face on traditional, “thicker is better” approaches, and instead is a very thin cable (x2 in this case).  After laying down some serious money for these AU24s even used, I was very disappointed.  Everything I liked about the Rocket 33 was gone.  The sound stage shrunk dramatically.  The tone was off, and nothing sounded natural.  Bass response was lessened, and everything sounded like it was suddenly being squeezed through a small straw.  In a matter of speaking, I guess it was.  I have no idea if the girth of the had anything to do with sonic characteristics, but they sounded like you might have expected them to based on appearances.  I cannot believe these cables get such great reviews, although perhaps there are speakers out there that match well.  The Vandersteens, however, are not one of those speakers.   Re-inserting the Rocket 33s restored the sound I had been enjoying.  I sold the AU24s and moved on.

A couple of months later when John and Samir were able to make it out to my house to do the official set-up, they brought out a set of AQ’s new Robin Hood cables in double run bi-wire Zero/Bass configuration.  They left them in the system to try.  I have to say, if I’m being completely honest, they sounded better than the Rocket 33s, but it was not a dramatic, oh my God kind of difference.  It is more like an evolution of what I already liked, just better.  They are more open.  They are smoother.  They facilitate details that you wouldn’t  know were missing.  They truly stay out of the way of the music.  My budget has increased from the old days, but if I was making a suggestion to someone on a tight budget, the Rocket 33 at roughly the same price as the tax you’ll pay on the more expensive new lines of cable, are a tremendous value and should easily keep one satisfied until they can/want to spend $2500+ on speaker cables.  If the Robin Hoods  are in your budget, I really like them.

One more thought - the high resolution of the Vandersteen speakers really makes it a whole lot easier to hear and articulate differences in cables and equipment.  It’s pretty amazing, actually, that something that I once regarded in varying degrees as “snake oil “ could actually have such a sonic impact on your listening experience.  Rather than “tuning “ the 5As with cables, though (as some like to do with other manufacturers) I find it is better to have the cables get out the way of Vandys so that they can do their thing.  

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Drew769

[Boom Boom]

Hello

I am currently using Transparent Audio MusicWave Super BiWires with my Vandersteen 2Cs. I bought these when I upgraded my Power Amp. With the Simaudio Moon W5 and a Shunyata Hydra H2, the macrodynamic shading came out as well as better sense of soundstage depth and height. I had the cables reterminated from spades to bananas. The Super line is very neutral sounding and well balanced tonally. I plan to update to Gen 6 and replace the 2Cs with 2Ce Signature IIIs.

For my Vandersteen 1Cs I am using Transparent Audio MusicWave Plus. They work well between the 1Cs and my Linn Majik 2100. I had the CHAKRA power supply upgrade.

[ctsooner]

Cables and cords are so personal.  I know all of audio is personal, but most of the upgrades are slight.  Some cables are inherently a bit bright or dark or...., but I've rarely heard them change the sound so dramatically that I didn't want to listen (as long as it's a well put together system).  

That said, I will say that it's important not to overspend on cables or cords.  Once I put Richards M5 amps in my system and got The Memory Player back in the system, I heard a sizable (for my ears) upgrade going from William Tell to William Tell Silver.  I had always been using Hurricane power cords, so I left them on the Niagara 3000.  When I installed the Dragon, it was a component difference.  As you stated, the more resolving the system, the more you will hear the difference.

I still feel strongly that if you need to have your system put together the way you want it before spending money on expensive cables.  It took me years and years to really do power cords, but once Garth (AQ) came out with the new lines, it was a no brainer for where I was in my build.

I have owned or had nearly all the brand names in and out over the years.  It's cheap and easy for friends to bring them over or for a company to send them out to audition.  There are some lines that I've owned in the past, that I'd never own again, unless they change their house sound.  I like AQ right now, because they are the most neutral to my ears in my system.  I've had MIT, Transparent, Crystal, Audience, Nordost, Kimber and a host of uber expensive, more difficult to run that the top AQ's and one offs that folks are playing around with before going to retail.  Most are fine in most systems, but you can tell who is engineering them based off of measurements and listening.  I'm currently using some pretty expensive optical and HDMI cables on my TV's and also my Bluesound sound bar.  They each cost nearly as much as the sound bar.  They make a spec of a difference for the better...... maybe???   I will say that when I used cable (I stream everything now), the HDMI cable upgrade to an AQ was a bit of an upgrade for my LG OLED.  You can buy a nice Cinnamon AQ HDMI and be very happy and not break the bank, but I urge you to audition before making a final purchase.  Do one at a time, not what I did (whole new loom at once.  

[Bill]

I'd recommend anything that is reasonably priced and looks nice.  Kimber seems to be a popular choice.  I use Linn K-400 and its fine.

I'd avoid AQ --> 

 

 

[GdnrBob]

@Bill,

When I heard the AQ William Tell's at Audioconnection  (with Ctsooner)., I was sold.

I would not have believed a speaker cable could affect the sound reproduction of a speaker in such a marked way (-for the better).

And, believe me, I don't want to spend money on high priced cables. But, the new cables by Garth are really, really, very good.

So good, that I ended up moving to an all AQ cabled system.

Bob

[TomicTime]

some thoughts and facts..

Richard V and Low. of AQ share the DBS patent

Take a look at RV best power amp, purpose built and engineered and most importantly Listened to……to get the best. sound possible paired with 7’s. IF he didn’t think is sounded better two wires would be missing  on the rear panel, along with one of something like ten (10) power supplies….

128 V DbS….for the speaker wires ( external biwire of course with lowmass gas tight  custom to Vandy ring terminals AND 128 V reverse DBS  on the XLR…

It takes RV a day to make the speaker cables, Im sure IF  made no impact, it would be gone in  heartbeat…..

 

 

[TomicTime]

any dust. bunnies or spelling errors are mine….ha

[Bill]

On 3/27/2021 at 5:07 PM, GdnrBob said:

 

Funny, but I just viewed a PS Audio youtube video and Paul showed a big bar of solder, which he claimed had lead in it.

Bob

There is an exception for stained glass work, although I would certainly never use it in electronics.

[TomicTime]

it also has a time and place…..

[ctsooner]

Great stuff guys.  My wife who has no clue of what I do or don't have hooked up, asked me what new piece of gear I bought.  I just told her I changed the power cords and cabling.  She said that it sounded like a whole new system as it just did everything much better.  You all know I use an all AQ loom.  I would NEVER spend what I did on cables and cords if I didn't think they made that big of a difference in my room/system.

[Bill]

8 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Great stuff guys.  My wife who has no clue of what I do or don't have hooked up, asked me what new piece of gear I bought.  I just told her I changed the power cords and cabling.  She said that it sounded like a whole new system as it just did everything much better.  You all know I use an all AQ loom.  I would NEVER spend what I did on cables and cords if I didn't think they made that big of a difference in my room/system.

Well, clearly not.  But I would encourage everyone to do their own BLIND A/B test for their own satisfaction.  You need about 30 samples to be statistically significant and it takes a few days/weeks to run. (Have fun take your time.) Have your wife or a friend change cables every so often according to a random cable selection schedule and then write down what you think you're listening to.  The key is that you must not know which cables are hooked up. (No peeking!) Score your results at the end of the test.  If you can post a score higher than about 70% then you have successfully differentiated speaker cables with statistical significance.

[BKDad]

First, let me say upfront that this will be my last post to this forum, so no response is required or even requested.  As I alluded to a couple weeks ago, I am retiring from these forums.  My main reason is because although they start out very cordial and helpful,  inevitably they turn into challenges that either end with calls for double blind testing or comparison to Hitler.  No thanks.

~~~~

I had a very close friend who was kind of an expert in medical double blind tests for the NIH.  He explained to me just why these audio DBTs are really only similar to medical DBTs in name only.  If he was still alive today, I'd get him to speak for himself.  I'll just have to do my best to overcome my ignorance.  I'm sure somebody will correct any errors I might have.

In traditional medical tests, a group of patients is given some treatment that is under test.  A comparable group is given a placebo.  Neither the people administering the treatment nor the patients have any idea which of the two treatments they are administering or being given.  Hence, "double blind."  

During the course of treatment, various medical people take the germane medical measurements and ask the patient for other observations they might have.  Like, for example, "Since starting this regime have you noticed any change in your sleep or bowel habits?  Itching?  Difficulty breathing?"  Stuff like that.

The data is all collected and various statistical analyses performed to see if the treatment really works and the observations are investigated to see if there's side effects that should be of concern.

But, as he pointed out, here's the difference between audio tests and medical DBT's:

In the medical DBT's, a truly independent objective measurement is made of the patients.  For example, blood pressure measurements for blood pressure treatments.  MRI scans and so on for cancer treatments.  The testing is separate from the observations of the patients, although those observations all are added to the test results.  In audio DBT's, the patient is also the test equipment.  How the patient feels that day and how they interpret the sound is as much of a variable as the "treatment" under test.  

See the difference?  

So, show me the brain scans of the people listening to music with different sets of cables and I'll pay more attention.

Anyway, why anybody should feel that the only path for satisfaction in listening to their home audio is through DBT validation is beyond me.  But, to each their own.

Vaarwel!

[TomicTime]

A real shame if a valuable voice in the community leaves. Thank you for your postings - I enjoyed and benefited from them

Jim

[GdnrBob]

I am disheartened by @BKDad's departure. I think his input to be valuable to the forum. Though I understand his motives, I would ask him to reconsider. Given the current state of emotions in our country,  a few members might express opinions that would make  others feel less worthy in expressing their opinions freely.

However, I think it important that if this does occur, that whoever's opinion is questioned, should respond- Just like BKdad, and give his/her basis for their opinion.

If those who have a reasonable opinion to refute their claims, and can state it in a non confrontational way, then let the dialog continue.

 

If you are reading this @BKDad, please reconsider leaving. 

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

BKDad, I am sorry you are leaving because as a valuable voice that prefers investing in components based on how they connect themselves to the emotion of the music (I am one off them).  I have measured stuff about speakers that would bore any normal person but I am stubborn and extremely determined and thrive on solving problems outside of the box or the considered norm.   Using the norm only produces different versions of the same thing which hinder true advancements for me.  Every now and then one finds a better solution but this has been mostly by listening, live vs recorded comparisons and sometimes measurements.  I believe that all things can be measured with the development of proper tests and enough experience on how to interpret the results.  Most of what has been determined as major accomplishments at Vandersteen Audio could not be measured because the test has not yet been invented.  Most audio tests are amplitude oriented which we humans are least sensitive to but as new tests are developed with timing as the more important of the two more of what we hear will be measurable.  DBT have some merit but only some important findings can come through the duress of a "gun to the head forced analytical human mind test" because many important nuances are not audible unless relaxed. From this we get statements about their not being differences in the sound of wire, resistors, caps if the spec is the same.  Many Vandersteen owners hear a very large improvement in the speakers with the Carbon Tweeters yet they measure very much alike.  I think they are one of the biggest breakthroughs I have discovered musicly.

I pay for this Forum because I learn something from all opinions and enjoy reading about them here but when they take a tone of Superiority they can be offensive  and arrogant.   I hope we can continue to share ideas and experiences that move us forward and yet have respect for the fact that it is the writers opinion without arrogant statements.  

RV

[John Gallup]

2 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

If you are reading this @BKDad, please reconsider leaving. 

Bob

Ditto. I haven't been around this forum for too long but it seems like pretty civilized place to me.

[GdnrBob]

20 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

DBT

?

B

[John Gallup]

8 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

?

B

Double-blind testing, I believe.

[Huang]

22 hours ago, BKDad said:

First, let me say upfront that this will be my last post to this forum, so no response is required or even requested.  As I alluded to a couple weeks ago, I am retiring from these forums.  My main reason is because although they start out very cordial and helpful,  inevitably they turn into challenges that either end with calls for double blind testing or comparison to Hitler.  No thanks.

~~~~

I had a very close friend who was kind of an expert in medical double blind tests for the NIH.  He explained to me just why these audio DBTs are really only similar to medical DBTs in name only.  If he was still alive today, I'd get him to speak for himself.  I'll just have to do my best to overcome my ignorance.  I'm sure somebody will correct any errors I might have.

In traditional medical tests, a group of patients is given some treatment that is under test.  A comparable group is given a placebo.  Neither the people administering the treatment nor the patients have any idea which of the two treatments they are administering or being given.  Hence, "double blind."  

During the course of treatment, various medical people take the germane medical measurements and ask the patient for other observations they might have.  Like, for example, "Since starting this regime have you noticed any change in your sleep or bowel habits?  Itching?  Difficulty breathing?"  Stuff like that.

The data is all collected and various statistical analyses performed to see if the treatment really works and the observations are investigated to see if there's side effects that should be of concern.

But, as he pointed out, here's the difference between audio tests and medical DBT's:

In the medical DBT's, a truly independent objective measurement is made of the patients.  For example, blood pressure measurements for blood pressure treatments.  MRI scans and so on for cancer treatments.  The testing is separate from the observations of the patients, although those observations all are added to the test results.  In audio DBT's, the patient is also the test equipment.  How the patient feels that day and how they interpret the sound is as much of a variable as the "treatment" under test.  

See the difference?  

So, show me the brain scans of the people listening to music with different sets of cables and I'll pay more attention.

Anyway, why anybody should feel that the only path for satisfaction in listening to their home audio is through DBT validation is beyond me.  But, to each their own.

Vaarwel!

BKDdad,

From what I have seen you have a sharp analytical mind, so might I propose this... stick around this forum. Just read posts, and then when you can't help yourself chime in (LOL). I was honest when I said in another post I have not run across any jerks here yet so, leave when they show up! Meanwhile, like a combination of some good wine, some good music, and a pair of Vandersteens, enjoy!

[GdnrBob]

@John Gallup,

Thanks, I couldn't find that acronym on Google.

B