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M5-HPA and Audioquest 72v DBS cables


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Preamps are a really interesting topic to study.  Just what exactly is important in preamp design?  (Rhetorical question, since there's probably as many answers as answerers, and some of the answers directly conflict with others.)

Just began PCB layout for my new one just his week.  PITA job that I've skillfully avoided to date...

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Charlie H of Ayre understood the conundrum...no preamp should be theoretically better....but in the world as we listen today...a preamp seems essential...we had this conversation at some length over Facebook and then privately.... Listening is key.... Believe me IF i could get better sonic performance with say an Aesthetix Pandora DAC or Brinkmann Nyquist driving the M7 power amps directly.....

As to preamp functionality and circuit design, i agree it’s a bit of paradox.....

i do believe a worthy goal is sonic purity to the input, ability to drive a long balanced cable to amps near speakers ( to minimize speaker cable Length ), some input switching, ....and IF possible provide features ( like a Cello Palette on steroids ) that when out of circuit have no sonic input. The goal of those features might be things like tone controls, loudness, stereo / mono blend, phase, etc....all easy to access from remote control while comfy in listening chair w nice glass of Vino...

 

just my two cents.... 

 

 

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Actually...

No preamp would be better, assuming all sorts of things.  None of those assumptions actually exist in the real world, at least at present.  So, you gotta do what you gotta do.

The real dopey part is that a lot of the problem is reasonably well understood, just ignored.  "You can't hear that!" sayeth the senior engineers.  So, it gets ignored.  

(If you're really interested, I could point you to the engineering and engineering physics books that discuss this in general terms.)

As for features, personally I'm not a big fan.  I figure that at some point, you have to live with the sonic engineering choices the recording team made along the way.  Keep in mind that most recorded music, at least made after some era, is not intended to be a recreation of the live event wherever it took place.  So, it is what it is; like it or not.  Listen to it , or not.  

If you go to a music hall the sound is different in pretty much every seat.  Most of us don't get to choose the perfect seat for some particular aspect of each musical selection.  So, you live with it.  But, everybody has their own desires of what they want in audio gear, so I won't criticize that wish.

That wasn't even worth two cents, was it?   Opinions have inflationary tendencies, too.

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I agree with what you guys have said for the most part.  I will differ from BK and side with Jim on the Cello on roids.  I had that conversation years ago with Tom Collangelo who was a partner in the original Cello company.  The reason for the controls was to make unlistenable albums from the 70's and 80's more manageable.  The nice thing is that if folks don't want to use them, you can run them that way.  Again, since it's not in the signal path, it shouldn't negatively affect the sound.  I have heard Cello in action and love what it does.  I just reached out to Matthew James who lives about 30 min away to see if I can come over and meet him and hear his systems that he's selling under the Cello name.  

BK if you want, I'd love to meet you and go audition if he gets back and says it's a go!  

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I never really liked the Cello preamp.  The tone controls certainly performed as advertised, but their effect only put a veneer of acceptability on otherwise bad recordings.  Lipstick on a pig...

But, if that's what works for you, I say great!

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Oh, I agree that they were heard.   I liked poorly recorded music through their gear, but not well recorded stuff.    That's why if done without leaving any sonic signature, that it would be great to have in case I wanted to calm down a song or two from my chair.  Just a bonus to me. I've almost always been a purist once I got out of the recording studio .

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I'm one of those "weirdos" that don't use a preamp. Signal from the 32-bit DAC goes through the high-pass into the V5xe amp. 

It wasn't a thought out decision, one time an idea popped up to try it, liked the sound purity so much that have been doing it ever since.

Also run my higher sensitivity headphones straight out of a DAC, there's nothing like it to me.

 

As for cables, I used to believe there is no difference. But on Quatro I do hear it. I have AQ and they're quite expensive, I bet someone on a tight budget could make do with any single core copper cable if they managed to properly do the connectors.

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2 hours ago, andrewtgt said:

I'm one of those "weirdos" that don't use a preamp. Signal from the 32-bit DAC goes through the high-pass into the V5xe amp. 

It wasn't a thought out decision, one time an idea popped up to try it, liked the sound purity so much that have been doing it ever since.

Also run my higher sensitivity headphones straight out of a DAC, there's nothing like it to me.

It works for you, right?  That's what matters.

2 hours ago, andrewtgt said:

As for cables, I used to believe there is no difference. But on Quatro I do hear it. I have AQ and they're quite expensive, I bet someone on a tight budget could make do with any single core copper cable if they managed to properly do the connectors.

I've had good luck using some of the UniCrystal OCC Copper Hookup Wire that Chris at VH Audio sells as, umm, hookup wire.  I had a thought a couple days ago of a speaker cable configuration I could build with that wire.  Just to see.  That thought will probably pass, but perhaps not.

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2 hours ago, andrewtgt said:

I'm one of those "weirdos" that don't use a preamp. Signal from the 32-bit DAC goes through the high-pass into the V5xe amp. 

I also run my Auralic Vega DAC directly into my Bryston 3B-SST with XLR cables.   The Vega has a digital volume control.  I do have a BAT 3iX tube pre-amp, but I prefer the greater detail  I hear when bypassing the pre-amp.

Further, since all my music is digital files, I've implemented the highpass filter for my cloth quatros in the digital domain, which made a huge sonic difference for the better.  It could be that the batteries in the highpass boxes need replacing  (they were last replaced in 2016), but I'm happy not to have to deal with the boxes anymore.   

I also do the room EQ in the digital domain, and all the controls on the back of the Quatro are left in their neutral positions.

I also use copper speaker wires, and they work really well.

Edited by Daverz
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We all have different experiences in this hobby and that is what makes it fun.  My experience with digital high-pass filters, volume controls and room EQ have been not up to the standards many expect.  I will admit the resolution of the system was very high and every experiment very controlled as the original Model 5's room EQ was to be automated digitally.  Some of the experiments fared better but still inferior when using digital sources of even my own recordings but compared to the master analog tapes of the exact take it was not close.  I believe in a digital only system when it is not possible to straight wire bypass the individual components going all digital including some of the better class "D" amps is a good way to go.  In this hobby ultimate  performance is still measured by using components with analog sources and wired systems (not wireless).  Someday wireless and digital may converge sonically but to my ears they are still distant and never do I or my wife get the goosebumps live music and analog can produce frequently.  I am vey happy digital has progressed as much as it has because for me casual listening is much more convenient and we use it all the time.  Why the M5-HPB did not do for Daverz  what our experiment results were is a mystery to me.  A very high quality cap that is battery biased and set to the correct frequency (many amplifiers have a different input impedance than quoted so this must be verified with the test disk and a voltmeter) has always sounded better in our exhaustive tests.  YMMV

RV  

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10 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Why the M5-HPB did not do for Daverz  

I did check that the HP boxes produce the correct 3dB attenuation at 100 Hz using the 20 kOhm settings for my Bryston.  The last time the battery was replaced (by the dealer) was in 2016 .  I did not check the battery voltage for fear that would just run down the battery more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

     

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Richard and I have had this conversation for awhile now.  He knows that I had to finally sell my analog rig (thanks Jim, hope you did enjoy it while you had it) and move to a fully digital platform.  I have been blessed to have access to many digital components that are considered upper level digital.  I've even been able to audition the Trinity DAC a couple of times here in the US (there may only be about 16 of them here).  My buddy has owned the Davinci mk2 for a few years (he's selling to move into a better DAC).  Most digital leaves me dry.  Most digital sounds different that what tonally correct to me sounds like.  Most digital.....isn't implemented properly.  

Few companies have figured out the clocking/jitter issues.  There are many types of jitter and each must be addressed.  My server has three settings that lower jitter all the way down to as low as I've seen measured.  When Sam delivered it, we listened for hours.  Once the system was warmed up (he had already broken my server in on the bench before delivery) we played.  All the recordings were 32bit with various sampling rates.  Each recording we used was direct from the master tape and was well recorded.  

My DAC was the Ayre QX5/20 which dollar for dollar is as good a DAC as I've heard under 8k.  We were able to get emotion from the music.  It wasn't analog, but digital can do some things better than analog if matched and set up properly.  Back to the story:

So Sam starts to change the 'slots' he's loading the music into and in turn it changes teh Jitter.  It was one of the easiest blind tests I've ever done.  No matter how cute he got when changing the jitter, I always preferred the lowest jitter .  Sam then told me that most people like the middle setting. I don't know why, but I do believe it has something to do with 'audiophile sound'.  I honestly have believed that most audiophiles have been told what sounds good or better and it's why great marketing will sell more product than great sound at a bargain price. 

It had nothing to do with burning your brain in or anything like that.  I can promise you that any true Vandy owner would get this test right 50 our of 50 times.  I know a Wilson owner who 'sort of hears a difference, but seems to like the middle setting and a Rockport Lyra owner who hears the differences, but can't tell which one he likes best.  As we all say, enjoy what you got and as long as it works for you, that's what you should do.  If you are open to some experimentation, then you may even find more happiness on your audio/music journey.  

BTW, is that the newest Vega or the G1?  It's got analog volume out.  I'm actually looking  at the newest one along with the external clock when I make my next move.  I have to audition it vs the Ayre.  A close friend has had both in his house and said the Ayre was a shade better in his set up.  I forget the major differences, but he said it was shade differences not one is better than the other.  The other thing about digital that is a MUST is clean power.  I have heard the MSB DAC stack sound less than stellar when plugged into the circuit that the lights were one.  When plugged into the Niagara 7000's digital outlet that was on a isolated circuit and all were using Dragon power cords, the sound was as good as I've ever heard from digital. Source at the time was Aurender W20.  

We also installed the ethernet optical isolation that was jsut beginning to being used and that made a HUGE difference.  It really was able to lower the noise floor to give you so much detail.  It

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He said that Mark has been measuring 3 types of jitter and lowering it over the years.  Which system?  I am currently running Sam's newest and top server on Roon and JRiver (sounds better still) and a jury rigged iFi DAC they installed.  Not loving the DAC part of the equation so far and it's why I'm looking at stand alone DAC's again.

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I think I framed my question badly.  Sorry!

Just what techniques have they been using to measure jitter?  Spectrum analyzer?  (You probably don't know which one, if they are.)  Correlation techniques?

Where are they measuring this jitter?  At the ADC clock?  At the DAC chip output?  At the output of a test microphone in front of a loudspeaker?  Earlier in the system?

They probably didn't discuss this with you much, if it all.  That's how this always seems to work.  So, I'm not pressuring you - just wondered if they brought it up.

This is a complicated subject, not exclusive to home audio.  Of course, how it applies for audio is somewhat different than it does for communications systems.  Somewhat the same, too.

A lot of what people attribute to jitter really isn't exactly what's suggested.

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3 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Richard and I have had this conversation for awhile now.  He knows that I had to finally sell my analog rig (thanks Jim, hope you did enjoy it while you had it) and move to a fully digital platform.  I have been blessed to have access to many digital components that are considered upper level digital.  I've even been able to audition the Trinity DAC a couple of times here in the US (there may only be about 16 of them here).  My buddy has owned the Davinci mk2 for a few years (he's selling to move into a better DAC).  Most digital leaves me dry.  Most digital sounds different that what tonally correct to me sounds like.  Most digital.....isn't implemented properly.  

Few companies have figured out the clocking/jitter issues.  There are many types of jitter and each must be addressed.  My server has three settings that lower jitter all the way down to as low as I've seen measured.  When Sam delivered it, we listened for hours.  Once the system was warmed up (he had already broken my server in on the bench before delivery) we played.  All the recordings were 32bit with various sampling rates.  Each recording we used was direct from the master tape and was well recorded.  

My DAC was the Ayre QX5/20 which dollar for dollar is as good a DAC as I've heard under 8k.  We were able to get emotion from the music.  It wasn't analog, but digital can do some things better than analog if matched and set up properly.  Back to the story:

So Sam starts to change the 'slots' he's loading the music into and in turn it changes teh Jitter.  It was one of the easiest blind tests I've ever done.  No matter how cute he got when changing the jitter, I always preferred the lowest jitter .  Sam then told me that most people like the middle setting. I don't know why, but I do believe it has something to do with 'audiophile sound'.  I honestly have believed that most audiophiles have been told what sounds good or better and it's why great marketing will sell more product than great sound at a bargain price. 

It had nothing to do with burning your brain in or anything like that.  I can promise you that any true Vandy owner would get this test right 50 our of 50 times.  I know a Wilson owner who 'sort of hears a difference, but seems to like the middle setting and a Rockport Lyra owner who hears the differences, but can't tell which one he likes best.  As we all say, enjoy what you got and as long as it works for you, that's what you should do.  If you are open to some experimentation, then you may even find more happiness on your audio/music journey.  

BTW, is that the newest Vega or the G1?  It's got analog volume out.  I'm actually looking  at the newest one along with the external clock when I make my next move.  I have to audition it vs the Ayre.  A close friend has had both in his house and said the Ayre was a shade better in his set up.  I forget the major differences, but he said it was shade differences not one is better than the other.  The other thing about digital that is a MUST is clean power.  I have heard the MSB DAC stack sound less than stellar when plugged into the circuit that the lights were one.  When plugged into the Niagara 7000's digital outlet that was on a isolated circuit and all were using Dragon power cords, the sound was as good as I've ever heard from digital. Source at the time was Aurender W20.  

We also installed the ethernet optical isolation that was jsut beginning to being used and that made a HUGE difference.  It really was able to lower the noise floor to give you so much detail.  It

Thanks for the reply.   That gear is a bit too esoteric for me.

I think I may have stepped in it by expressing some amateurish enthusiasm for the digital system I've put together.  It was not meant as an attack on the Vandersteen design philosophy.  The cloth Quatros are the best speakers I've ever owned, so Richard must  be doing something right.

I also did not mean to open up a digital vs. analog discussion.  (I do have excellent vinyl playback equipment, by the way.)  

I hope being a "true" Vandy owner does not require coming down on one side or the other.

  

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1 hour ago, Daverz said:

Thanks for the reply.   That gear is a bit too esoteric for me.

I think I may have stepped in it by expressing some amateurish enthusiasm for the digital system I've put together.  It was not meant as an attack on the Vandersteen design philosophy.  The cloth Quatros are the best speakers I've ever owned, so Richard must  be doing something right.

I also did not mean to open up a digital vs. analog discussion.  (I do have excellent vinyl playback equipment, by the way.)  

I hope being a "true" Vandy owner does not require coming down on one side or the other.

  

Hi Daverz,

No problem on expressing any enthusiasm for anything on this forum amongst Vandersteen Owners because that is why I pay for it.  I do not want to start a digital vs. analog argument either as I consider them separate sources.  A simple experiment;  fire up your analog system and warm it up.  Turn off ALL things digital including displays on analog components  and listen.  Its shocking!  When we were designing the M7-HPA amplifier  we tried using a microprocessor to control the many complex parameters of this difficult to control circuit, NOT!  Dean and I had to redesign the control circuit to be all analog as the microprocessors existence was audible.   Nature is not fooled by all of the complex conversions of info (energy) without a cost, I believe.  Analog may seem crude but it is simple and a comparatively short path.  I have participated in many listening sessions and the differences between analog and digital is greatest when the analog chain is not corrupted by any digital.  An interesting note:  Eneke and I have noticed the dramatic improvements  in digital over the years but the lack of goosebumps continues. YMMV

RV

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Dave, you stepped in nothing!  As Richard said, it's all good.  I wish I could do analog, but with my MS, it's just too difficult to get up and clean/change etc...  I still look at an inexpensive rig at times thinking I cna do it, lol.  

As for digital, if done properly, it's outstanding.  I have gotten goosebumps from digital a couple of times.  The best sounding DAC I've ever owned was Steve Nuggents Empirical Audio DAC.  Steve is a genius and a great guy.  I sold mine as I know he's retiring soonish and I don't want to get stuck with the best sounding DAC under 15K that becomes a brick the second a cap starts to fail.

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