M5-HPA and Audioquest 72v DBS cables

[John Gallup]

2 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

A simple experiment;  fire up your analog system and warm it up.  Turn off ALL things digital including displays on analog components  and listen.  Its shocking! 

Doing that now...Yes it's better.

[GdnrBob]

@John Gallup,

I recall Pat at SMcAudio telling me even the LED power lights affected sound output.

As for Preamps, I think even Paul McGowan  changed his stance and now thinks adding one is all for the better.

Bob

[ctsooner]

I wonder if OLED displays affect it much.  Seems like many DAC's have gone this route.  Servers seem to be the same way.

 

[TomicTime]

Relentless pursuit of better in digital and analogue....

[BKDad]

I think most modern light emitting diodes are pretty low noise.  The semiconductor processing lets that happen.  Although they are not quite as stable with regard to voltage versus temperature as the best voltage references, LEDs often have lower noise and work pretty well as references themselves.  That's why they are used by some designers in audio circuits.  Ever look inside an Ayre product when it's powered up?  One of my friends describes it as a "Christmas tree."  They wouldn't be using them if the noise was high and unacceptable - they have other options.

But, that's for single diodes.  Displays are much different.

Consider how many pixels are in a typical display now.  Each one needs an individual LCD "shutter" in front of a light source or a switchable light source such as an LED  to let you see light at that pixel or not.  That's a lot of things to control.  There's no practical way to run individual wires to each of these in a display.  Plus, it's not practical for the controller of the display to have an individual pin for each one, either.  So, the connections are multiplexed.  (Note: There's other reasons why this is done, too, but I'll stick to the simple part.)  That means that a bunch of logic is used to route the control signals for each individual light source or shutter to keep the wiring down.

The limitation with this is that now you have a zillion logic elements that are switched 30-120 times per second to update the display.  Plus, in order to have shades of gray, you need to control the light output of the sources or the action of the shutters in a way that convinces your eyes that the pixel is only part way turned on.  All the associated current pulses add up to noise.  

That's the simplified explanation.

Digital logic is basically noisy when it runs.  This is well known and easily explained.  The noise can manifest itself in lots of ways over a wide frequency range.  It also can propagate through differential mode conduction (the usual way people think about conduction), common mode conduction, and through various types of electromagnetic coupling - cue the cable guys!

Now, this starts to get complicated.  Rather than me blathering about this, if anybody is curious about the subject I can steer you to some works by experts in the field and the basic engineering and engineering physics books that do a far better job than I ever could in explaining it all.  Even Khan Academy has some decent primer material on the subject.

One last point I'll make.  Most home audio gear (there are some exceptions) doesn't really pay much attention to these details.  The companies sort of leave that to the consumer, with the idea that they'll find their own solutions to this.  The problem with that is the menu for such remedies is somewhat limited.  Yeah, you can do things with the cabling to improve this or that.  Yeah, there are some power conditioners that address some aspects of the problem.  But, in general, the solution set isn't really complete in most cases.  This is hardly a new problem, but while the noise sources have become stronger, more prevalent, and broader in their frequency spectrum over the years, the solutions were mostly developed a few decades ago.   Those solutions really did a great job for the problems defined at the time, but maybe not so much now.  Even then, solutions like audio transformers are a challenging problem unto themselves and they tend to run out of steam when you get to the frequencies where digital noise dwells.

Richard is right.  Digital is hard, as you can determine for yourself just by unplugging and otherwise disconnecting a bunch of the digital gear in your listening room.  Think of it this way...  If he has limited options of what he can do to improve things, what chance does a normal consumer have?

OK, enough soapbox time for me.  If anybody wants those references, just speak up.  Otherwise, I'll now be going to mute mode.  Everybody else go listen to some music.

[GdnrBob]

Well for me, Streaming music is a Godsend.

Now I can listen to new albums, new composers, and things I never would have bought if I still used vinyl. Plus, I don't have to get up every 30 minutes to change a side...😊

I am currently using an Ayre QB-9 and Innuos Zen with a bunch of AQ cabling streaming Qobuz, and really can't find issue with sound quality.

B

[Steve Edwards]

On 4/21/2021 at 3:43 PM, andrewtgt said:

I'm one of those "weirdos" that don't use a preamp. Signal from the 32-bit DAC goes through the high-pass into the V5xe amp. 

It wasn't a thought out decision, one time an idea popped up to try it, liked the sound purity so much that have been doing it ever since.

Also run my higher sensitivity headphones straight out of a DAC, there's nothing like it to me.

 

As for cables, I used to believe there is no difference. But on Quatro I do hear it. I have AQ and they're quite expensive, I bet someone on a tight budget could make do with any single core copper cable if they managed to properly do the connectors.

I'm considering upgrading to cables on my Quatros and AQ seems to be widely accepted as superior to most in this group.  Which AQ model are you using on your Quatros?

Play on

[John Gallup]

57 minutes ago, Steve Edwards said:

I'm considering upgrading to cables on my Quatros and AQ seems to be widely accepted as superior to most in this group.  Which AQ model are you using on your Quatros?

Play on

I'm using "Blizzard" power cables, which are the lowest-priced ones with the DBS system. The interconnects are "Water," and the speaker cables are "William Tell" bi-wire combo. My dealer allowed me a tryout of the speaker cables and I made a conscious (although not double-blind scientific) effort to compare them to the Kimber 8TCs they replaced, and could discern a real improvement. The other cables were part of the new system of M5-HPA amps, Quatros and a Rogue Audio RP-9 preamp so I didn't get to "test" them.

[nrenter]

With power cords for sub, I'd make sure you can try before you buy. Any changes you may hear could (probably) be accomplished by a slight tweak to a dial. If you search the "Ask Richard" section, you'll get his opinion (of which I agree):

Quote

I PLUG MY SEVENS INTO THE WALL WITH STOCK POWER CORDS BECAUSE MORE RECORDS OR A BETTER PHONO CARTRIDGE IS A BETTER INVESTMENT.? ONE WOULD HAVE A VERY EXPENSIVE SYSTEM BEFORE THE PC ON THE SUB AMP WOULD BE THE WEAKEST LINK.

I'll admit, the PCs on my Quatros are primarily for aesthetics. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by nrenter

[ctsooner]

I agree on the sub part. I just got a pair of Hurricanes for the Quatro's.  It was the first time I went off of what Garth said to do as I couldn't get a pair in to listen.  They had to put the smaller connector on the amp end to fit the Quatro's amp plate.  I'll be selling a 2m Hurricane and 2m Horizon balanced now that I've upgraded.  I honestly feel that moving to the Niagara 300 using a Dragon cord into the Edison outlet on a dedicated circuit has made a good size leap forward in lowering noise floor in the whole system.  Everything is just so much better.  Detail, size of stage, lower noise.  

I love anytime that Garth has done so far at AQ.  He's sheer genius.  The Basis power cord I'm selling is also killer.  It lists for 2800 I believe.  AJ Conte (RIP) was just a great physicist and audio designer.  Everything he introduced was a Best Buy in his price ranges.  I miss our talks a lot.  Just a great guy.

[GdnrBob]

3 hours ago, ctsooner said:

They had to put the smaller connector on the amp end to fit the Quatro's amp plate.

Well, I cheaped out and found a right angle connector to plug my Tornados into the Sub 3 (seems to share the same issue).

 

You know, these new power cord are so dang stiff and unwieldy. When I set up my system, I never thought I would be putting in cords like these. So, due to physical limitations, I am having to use a bunch of these right angle adapters. I did call AQ and they felt if it is a metal to metal connection, then there should be no significant loss in quality.

Who knows? At least they fit in the space given.

Bob

[TomicTime]

.....i must admit to using the stock factory Vandersteen AC power cords on both the 7’s and the M7 amplifiers....every other power cord in the system is upgrade...

 

[Steve Edwards]

Well Jim  ...............  that saves me a little money!  :)

[BFW]

My system is all digital with the amps, components, and power regenerators connected using PS Audio AC-12 power cables.  PS Audio doesn’t make power cables anymore and they don’t fit Vandersteen products anyway so I moved to AudioQuest when I added subs.  I am using AudioQuest NRG-Z3 power cables for my two SUB THREEs and inspired by the Z3 cables I recently upgraded from Cardas Golden power cables to AudioQuest Thunder power cables for my Quatros.

The subs are 3.25 inches from the wall so I went with the NRG-Z3 because it’s 14 gauge, flexible, and still has perfect surface copper.  I didn’t want to introduce another connector to make the 90 degree turn is such a small space.  The C13 connector that comes with the NRG-Z3 fit the SUB THREE.  Did the AQ cable sound better than the stock Vandersteen cable?  Yes.  What it dramatically better? No.  The bass was a bit more defined or tighter, subtle but there.  The difference was most prevalent on acoustic bass with better attack definition and decay

I have more space to the wall with the Quatros and I thought the power cable impact would potentially be greater than the impact on the SUB THREEs so I went with more expensive power cable.  I wasn’t able to audition a bunch of power cables but I did talk extensively to my dealer and also to AQ and both indicated the Thunder is the best value for the Quatros (they didn’t come right out with that.  I worked them thus my adverb choice of “extensively”).  AQ did use a different, smaller C13 connector than the normal Thunder connector to fit. I honestly don’t remember what the stock Quatro cables sounded like (2008 was a long time ago) so I can’t compare but the AQ cables are better than the Cardas cables in every way....blacker background, slightly smoother highs, better, fuller bass.  I would also say the speakers seem a little more dynamic and I would even go so far as to say more musical. I would spend the extra money for the Thunders for my SUB THREEs if I had the space to fit them.

With respect to RV’s comment on the relative value of power cords I don’t disagree.  Their improvements are small relatively speaking, but with the right cable the improvements can be there without a doubt.  I think once one’s system gets to a certain level, large improvements come at a large cost, and everyone’s value equation is different.  I am happy with the ~$2600 MSRP investment in AQ power cables.

[ctsooner]

Yes, you are talking a lot of money to get improvements, but at that level most aren't like a new component.  I will say that for me, the largest difference was upgrade to the Dragon from a Hurricane for the Niagara 3000.  That was a HUGE upgrade and I'm glad I did it.  Would I get Hurricane's for the Quatro again? Yes, but I I too have been told that even th eBlizzards are a nice upgrade.  His 'lower' line of cords are amazing nad much easier to play with.  

[BKDad]

I was doing some online window shopping this morning.  Self, I thought, perhaps I could do better than my AQ Castle Rock internally bi-wired speaker cables.  After all, Richard Vandersteen himself suggests that separate "true" bi-wired speaker cables are preferable to internally bi-wired cables right there in the Quatro Operation Manual.  The reasoning makes sense to me.  (Quad twist cable geometries probably are better suited to internal bi-wiring, but still...)

Of course, Castle Rocks are no longer made.  But, from all specs and appearances, it seems that GO-4 cabling is really the same as Castle Rock, except that Castle Rock had two cable sets bonded together to facilitate internal bi-wiring.  Much as Rocket 88 cables do. (What's the difference between Rocket 88 and Castle Rock, aside from the terminations?)  So, I was thinking that a pair of GO-4's, which appears to still be available as bulk cable, might work as a kind of "true" bi-wired equivalent to an internally bi-wired set of Castle Rocks.

But, that really isn't my point here.

What I noticed is that an awful lot of online AQ dealers - remember, I was window shopping - don't seem to offer the Folk Series and above as new products any longer.  Places like Music Direct did previously.  

There could be lots of reasons for this, but I wonder if that AudioHolics video caused some sort of minor market upheaval.  

[nrenter]

@BKDad,

I purchased 2 sets of the AudioQuest CV-8 cables to run in a shotgun-bi-wired configuration...and then sent them back to AudioQuest to combine the amp-terminations into a single set of spades. I get a good around of copper, 2 independent 72 volt DBS packs, physical separation between the legs, and eliminate one set of spades...all for a relatively decent price. Sure, I could do better, but maybe not for the $ spent. Could have been an even bigger bargain if I would have purchased the cables used to begin with (I got them discounted new from Music Direct).

Edited April 27, 2021 by nrenter

[BKDad]

3 minutes ago, nrenter said:

then sent them back to AudioQuest to combine the amp-terminations into a single set of spades

Was that an expensive proposition?  I haven't a clue what AQ charges for such work.

[nrenter]

Just found the RMA...It was $150. IMHO, it was worth it just to say they're OEM re-terminated (in the event I sell them).

[BKDad]

Thanks! That is most reasonable.

[ctsooner]

I agree on having AQ do the work on cables.  I had them terminate my power cords with a 20amp connection at the amp for the Mono blocks and also had them reterminate the Quatro's Hurricanes to fit the narrow space.  They did a great job.  When you think about it, the Folk series on up are terminated at the amp end into one set of spade for ease of use etc...  

I had Castle Rocks and thought they were fine, but the new cables are just in another league IMO.  Anything that Garth has designed just works.  I hope some of you guys will call the Vandersteen dealers like Rutan, or Suni or Spelt or Jones or Bruce in SD... when you want gear.  They know what does and doesn't work best and they will probably give you the same or better price than the online dealers etc...  I've been doing that for years now and have forged special friendships with most of the dealers.  

[BKDad]

Well, the newer AQ series are more like much older AQ designs in terms of geometries.  Many things in life are cyclical, I guess.

My real point of making the post I did was my observation about many of the online stores seeming to offer fewer of the higher end AQ speaker cables than they did previously.  Just wondering why.  

Aside from CDs, I rarely buy anything from those guys.  But, they are a convenient place to window shop.

[John Gallup]

5 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

I hope some of you guys will call the Vandersteen dealers like Rutan, or Suni or Spelt or Jones or Bruce in SD... when you want gear.  They know what does and doesn't work best and they will probably give you the same or better price than the online dealers etc

Bruce Heimberg at Stereo Unlimited in San Diego has given me 20 percent off list on AQ stuff. Others may have done better, but I feel well-treated there. The store is huge, has tons of used equipment and an amazing assortment of vinyl for sale. I'd been shopping there for years before I realized they also have a 50-seat-or-so theater for presentations.

Edited April 27, 2021 by John Gallup

[Richard Vandersteen]

On 4/25/2021 at 2:47 PM, BFW said:

My system is all digital with the amps, components, and power regenerators connected using PS Audio AC-12 power cables.  PS Audio doesn’t make power cables anymore and they don’t fit Vandersteen products anyway so I moved to AudioQuest when I added subs.  I am using AudioQuest NRG-Z3 power cables for my two SUB THREEs and inspired by the Z3 cables I recently upgraded from Cardas Golden power cables to AudioQuest Thunder power cables for my Quatros.

The subs are 3.25 inches from the wall so I went with the NRG-Z3 because it’s 14 gauge, flexible, and still has perfect surface copper.  I didn’t want to introduce another connector to make the 90 degree turn is such a small space.  The C13 connector that comes with the NRG-Z3 fit the SUB THREE.  Did the AQ cable sound better than the stock Vandersteen cable?  Yes.  What it dramatically better? No.  The bass was a bit more defined or tighter, subtle but there.  The difference was most prevalent on acoustic bass with better attack definition and decay

I have more space to the wall with the Quatros and I thought the power cable impact would potentially be greater than the impact on the SUB THREEs so I went with more expensive power cable.  I wasn’t able to audition a bunch of power cables but I did talk extensively to my dealer and also to AQ and both indicated the Thunder is the best value for the Quatros (they didn’t come right out with that.  I worked them thus my adverb choice of “extensively”).  AQ did use a different, smaller C13 connector than the normal Thunder connector to fit. I honestly don’t remember what the stock Quatro cables sounded like (2008 was a long time ago) so I can’t compare but the AQ cables are better than the Cardas cables in every way....blacker background, slightly smoother highs, better, fuller bass.  I would also say the speakers seem a little more dynamic and I would even go so far as to say more musical. I would spend the extra money for the Thunders for my SUB THREEs if I had the space to fit them.

With respect to RV’s comment on the relative value of power cords I don’t disagree.  Their improvements are small relatively speaking, but with the right cable the improvements can be there without a doubt.  I think once one’s system gets to a certain level, large improvements come at a large cost, and everyone’s value equation is different.  I am happy with the ~$2600 MSRP investment in AQ power cables.

I do believe power cords make a difference but always recommend investing the money  improving a systems weakest link!  The bass on all Vandersteen's with powered sub-woofers are adjustable to taste so I would improve the power cord on the pre-amp, sources and amplifier first.

RV

[GdnrBob]

I spoke with Alasdair at AQ a month or two ago, and he said the speaker terminations are easily changed with a screwdriver.

Though power cords require a  multimeter in order to assure proper wiring (As per- John Rutan).

Bob