Toe-in?

[TomicTime]

i gotta get back in good graces, i shall paraphrase: acoustically transparent and required !

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

The grill material we use is very fine as you can see through it.  The grill frame includes the smoothing contour lens and anti-diffractive felt required for proper (flat) frequency response.  If one were anal about the fabric it could be removed but the frame and felt needs to remain.  The fabric is part of the design like the similar fabric used to protect microphones.  Grill material can not change when the signal arrives at the listeners ears only if it were to change the relative distance to the listeners ears would the timing change.

 

RV

[ctsooner]

Thanks Richard.  Needing to leave the grill on for best performance was a major plus for me.  I hate taking off the grills on a speaker to hear it sound it's best.  They always get pulled and quickly ruined

[Paul S.]

How much toe in is needed when you are close to the side walls? I have 2 CE signature II

[GdnrBob]

4 hours ago, Paul S. said:

How much toe in is needed when you are close to the side walls? I have 2 CE signature II

Much depends upon your room and where you are sitting. I would follow the directions given on the manual, and then season to taste-which should be minimal.

If you need someone to walk you through it, I suggest Johnny Rutan at Audioconnection. I would also recommend @TomicTime, but I hate to presume.

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

57 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

Much depends upon your room and where you are sitting. I would follow the directions given on the manual, and then season to taste-which should be minimal.

If you need someone to walk you through it, I suggest Johnny Rutan at Audioconnection. I would also recommend @TomicTime, but I hate to presume.

Bob

That is different for every room!  Read the manual and follow the instruction about using toe until you get a nide spread across the sound stage.

RV

[Paul S.]

Thanks. I went through everything in the manual again last night. I think it is pretty close. My concern was what really is minimal toe in? At each speaker the outside corner of the cabinet is 35" from the wall and the other corner is 33.25". Same for both speakers. I assume thats not alot of toe in? 

 

Yes i know Johnny R very well. If I'm still concerned after this post i will call him

[Richard Vandersteen]

That is a small amount of toe but the important thing is not how much but how it images across the sound stage.  Having the wrong amount of toe won't damage anything so one should play with it and understand its effect.  Not all people want the same amount of spread, some want hyper focus with everything hard center, they will have more toe.

RV

[Paul S.]

Thank you! I am going to fine tune from here. 

[Holmz]

Does the room treatment also factor into how much reflected sound one may desire?
If the room was super treated would they sound better with no toe?
(I usually whack in a bit of toe in… by rocking/pivoting them around a spike…)
They do seem way more sensitive to a centimetre of distance to the ball and side walls then to the toe (from what my ears can tell) 

If they were laser focussed then it gets easier, but with some sound going out to the sides, then they interact with the walls in good ways.

The horizontal dispersion of the 2C:
 

[TomicTime]

Good for asking, but excellent that you are mucking around with it and learning to discern small to massive differences. I try to adjust toe in with a very well known reference recording that i KNOW has spatial information encoded that exceeds the speaker width. Krall Live in Paris works for me, but good to find your own.  Start w no toe in a big room with no discernible side reflections and work you way in. I find a laser quite helpful in this task. I sit in listening chair and use chin ( which is approximately ear ht. ) and pivot the laser aiming at tweeter IF visible, you just want consistent aim point so you can get both speakers to match.  Alternatively i use a big peice of cardboard in the listening chair to use as a laser target when shooting from the top of say a treo or model 2. Again as RV said, season to taste….generally i see a whisker 2 much aggressive toe in…audiophile style points. A vague center image on Kral w sides splashy would indicate not enough toe in… Hope this helps…

The 2 are a formidable beast even today and IMO will out image many speakers up to $20 k, due care, concern in carefully experiment with setup are rewarded richly.

Best to you

jim

[Steve Edwards]

Krall Live in Paris  ..............  one of Richard's five reference recordings.  Recently, I picked up the ORG reissue, but haven't spent time with it yet  ...............  maybe this afternoon!  :)

[GdnrBob]

22 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

That is different for every room!  Read the manual and follow the instruction about using toe until you get a nide spread across the sound stage.

RV

Didn't I say that?

[Holmz]

56 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

Didn't I say that?

You said “wide”, whereas RV said “ride”
Phonetically it adds spice. 

(I notice a few auto-corrects in my own posts as well.)

[Richard Vandersteen]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:01 PM, VFan said:

First post here, glad to have found a place where V speakers are well appreciated.  Wonder how much toe-in you have on your Vandersteens.  I found that in my set-up, I prefer a very minimal amount of toe-in, much less than (I believe?) what is suggested in manual.  What has been your experience?

Nothing is suggested in the manual other than to experiment and put it where it needs to be for a sound stage the listener likes!

RV

[Paul S.]

I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me dial in my system. Based on Richard's description of center focus vs soundstage I was able to dial in my speakers to get the soundstage and imaging i was looking for. Had no idea i had to fine tune the toe in down to a 1/4 inch between settings to finally get everything snapped into focus. Now i have to write this down when i need to move them to fill in the stands (next project). Really enjoying the benefits of this forum! 

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, Paul S. said:

I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me dial in my system. Based on Richard's description of center focus vs soundstage I was able to dial in my speakers to get the soundstage and imaging i was looking for. Had no idea i had to fine tune the toe in down to a 1/4 inch between settings to finally get everything snapped into focus. Now i have to write this down when i need to move them to fill in the stands (next project). Really enjoying the benefits of this forum! 

At one point in the old house I had started moving the speakers into the room an inch at a time…
Then at some point there was a depth just appeared like a wraith out of the mist.

The Mrs however did not like it because the music sounded like it was coming from a few feet on the other side of the wall, and was “un natural” compared to speakers she was used to. Plus it was not designer friendly.

The moral of the story is to not be bashful about prancing and dancing them around the room, in case there is a magic spot that they like.
And the side distance, and toe-in, become at bit of a 3 dimensional optimisation dance.

[ctsooner]

Great thread for all. It makes me look at my set up and want to read the manual and reset the speakers (I had to move them a lot after Johnny set them up).  Is the radio shack the only device that works?  I bought one last year and it was dead on arrival and he wouldn't give me my money back.  

[GdnrBob]

1 hour ago, ctsooner said:

Great thread for all. It makes me look at my set up and want to read the manual and reset the speakers (I had to move them a lot after Johnny set them up).  Is the radio shack the only device that works?  I bought one last year and it was dead on arrival and he wouldn't give me my money back.  

I hate to mention it but, did you check the batteries?

I have one if you need it.

B

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

I hate to mention it but, did you check the batteries?

I have one if you need it.

B

The Radio Shack analog meter is the one we calibrated the test disc for.  They are available on eBay and worth having for many reasons.  You will be surprised how often you use one.

RV

[TomicTime]

Now….where did I put that SPL meter….

[TomicTime]

16 hours ago, Paul S. said:

I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me dial in my system. Based on Richard's description of center focus vs soundstage I was able to dial in my speakers to get the soundstage and imaging i was looking for. Had no idea i had to fine tune the toe in down to a 1/4 inch between settings to finally get everything snapped into focus. Now i have to write this down when i need to move them to fill in the stands (next project). Really enjoying the benefits of this forum! 

So glad you got it nailed ! 

Jim

[Paul S.]

Thanks. Actually after posting i went back to the manual again and fine tuned the setback. Turns out that it snapped into focus even more by changing the tilt frim 1 1/2 to 1 1/4". Learned my lesson to experiment a little and it has really paid off. 

[bkeske]

That’s what is is all about Paul. I would tweak and tweak and tweak until I saw what even the smallest changes would make. Eventually I learned to take notes in the process, so I could ‘go back’ if need be.

Enjoy!

[Steve Edwards]

23 hours ago, TomicTime said:

Now….where did I put that SPL meter….

and Jim .......... that glass of grape juice has reached a seriously low level