Using Townshend Podiums (platforms for Vandersteens)?

[Patrick D]

THANKS FOR ANY HELP. I have long considered these Townshend Podiums, but they are an expensive tweak ($1500-2000 a pair). I would love some feedback as to their effectiveness. One hesitation is that my current 2CE SigIIIs might require a different platform than the Treo CT I have forever been considering to upgrade to.  

QUESTION: If I used them under my 2CEs (which would still be mounted on the T-stands), can I safely empty the stands of the lead shot inside them, to lighten the speaker+stad in order to put them on the Townshend Podiums?

I have a wood floor (joists with subfloor and plank flooring, which is pretty "live". I am looking to isolate the speakers from the floor as much as possible.  The speakers are on the T-stands and currently sit on spikes (on small metal pucks). I haven't researched whether granite bases would be good under the stands.

https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-vibration-isolation-speaker-podiums/

TOWNSHEND SAYS: Floated on Seismic Isolation Podiums, speakers are freed from the ever-present seismic activity and room/floor interactions that seriously degrade sound quality. The result is simply magical, allowing listeners to hear into their favourite music in a way they were never able to previously. When under your speakers, they will give you immediate improvements in overall sound by preventing speaker generated vibration from entering the floor and sound from entering your speakers. By eliminating the resonance between the speaker-cabinet mass and the floor, the sound will be noticeably clearer, much more tuneful, controlled and natural.  Bass boom is significantly reduced and there will be a far larger, much deeper and wider sound stage. The sound becomes natural and more enjoyable.

Review in AbSound: http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Townshend Seismic Podium - The Absolute Sound product of the year 2020 _ Speaker Vibration Isolation.pdf

Comment on a good audio forum on Facebook:

TOWNSHEND seismic podiums arrived today. Probably my most nerve wracking purchase ever. 12 hours listening and they have won me over.

Enhancing sound stage, deep bass has clearer start finish. Easily the most dramatic improvement you can make to your system. A lot of this is because the Podiums isolate so well they not only immensely improve detail coming directly from the speakers, but also dramatically eliminate vibration from the speakers exciting your floor, walls and ceiling. This takes the room out of the equation to a certain extent, something impossible to achieve any other way. 

Member Chuck Miller replied:
I took mine to a friend's place one time and watched him sit there literally slack-jawed and shaking his head. After a while he clicked on this one track and with the most incredulous look on his face said, "Do you have any idea how many times I've played this? I use it for everything and I'm hearing stuff I had no idea was even on there!" 

The hardest part is the price, it seems high for a tweak or accessory. But it's more like a $5k speaker upgrade, with another $5k of room acoustic treatment thrown in for free, making the Podiums a bargain.

 

So I asked: 

 I have the recommended Vandersteen T bases attached to my 2CEs, which are filled with lead shot and add quite a bit to the weight as an integrated unit. I might need the heavier cells. I'll have to weigh the bases separately and do some math. The Treo CT is free-standing...doesn't use a weighted base. FYI

•  

Chuck:

Mass loading is old school. If the mass is super stiff and dense like the carbon fiber BDR Shelf it can be better than nothing. But all Maas loading is really just altering resonant signature, hopefully in a way we like. Ultimately we're talking about coloring the sound. Podiums eliminate this, allowing the speaker to dissipate energy and stop vibrating faster. This has the effect of diminishing or removing coloration. This is why people hear not only a lot more detail, but instruments that sound much more natural, with greater truth of timbre. Both will almost certainly sound better on Podiums without the bases. In your case with C cells as long as the total doesn't go much above 93 lbs you'll be able to try both ways.

Me:

Good thoughts. If I empty the bases of the lead shot, they won't weigh much and they still provide the stability that the speakers need. Then they would probably be fine with the C cells. The T bases on the 2CE are important to be able to adjust the forward / backward lean angle, which varies depending on the distance from ears to tweeters, and ear height.

Chuck:

Podiums make adjustments like that super easy. Although you will probably find it better to level the Podiums first, and adjust lean angle on the speakers from there.

Edited August 27 by Patrick D
corrections

[Patrick D]

re QUESTION: If I used them under my 2CEs (which would still be mounted on the T-stands), can I safely empty the stands of the lead shot inside them, to lighten the speaker+stad in order to put them on the Townshend Podiums?
 

STAND, not stad. Oops

[GdnrBob]

I was going to use them under my Treo's, but the outrigger feet were just too wide for my limited space.

I eventually used them under my equipment (Preamp, etc.). Which actually did improve the sound quality ( overall clarity, and tighter bass).

FWIW, I ended up going with Mr. V's recommendation of using Granite plinths under my speakers. Which, I think is one of the best moves I have done, recently.

If you were to use the Townshend platforms, I would remove the Sound Anchor bases. I don't see how they would be necessary, as you are decoupling them from the floor. The only benefit might be from stiffening the cabinets, perhaps.

Bob

[Holmz]

Carbon fiber and other ways to make the structure stiffer, result in the resonant frequency increasing,
And the vibration dampen quicker in time as one gets more cycles in any given timeframe ,
Mass loading reduces the resonant frequency and also reduces the amplitude.
And then having some stiff structure with some high mass attached to it could also be used, especially if the mass was attached with a lossy interface.

In products with “layers”, and with “Constrained Layer Damping”, then one wants stiff layers and the damping material to be in shear.
Which then turns the vibration into heat.
If we rap our knuckles on it and it sounds dead, then it is dead.

One could maybe put the speakers on valve springs or foam rubber, and see if it sounds better, before getting the Townsends?
Using accelerometers would also work.
But some foam rubber with a sheet of thin plywood on top should be pretty easy to try out.
Or a thinner piece of sobathane or foam rubber under a plinth get us back to the previously mentioned method.

If the speaker cabinet is well dampened, and for speakers with opposing woofers, there should not be a lot of vibrations to go outwards towards the floor.
One could start with “the laying on of hands” to the cabinet and seeing if they can feel bass vibrations.
I think that some speakers may be worse than others, and if your cabinets are not buzzing, then you would not have as good of effect as with a different speaker.  

That does not tell whether there are vibrations coming up from the floor.

Basically “i dunno.”

[Richard Vandersteen]

3 hours ago, Patrick D said:

THANKS FOR ANY HELP. I have long considered these Townshend Podiums, but they are an expensive tweak ($1500-2000 a pair). I would love some feedback as to their effectiveness. One hesitation is that my current 2CE SigIIIs might require a different platform than the Treo CT I have forever been considering to upgrade to.  

QUESTION: If I used them under my 2CEs (which would still be mounted on the T-stands), can I safely empty the stands of the lead shot inside them, to lighten the speaker+stad in order to put them on the Townshend Podiums?

I have a wood floor (joists with subfloor and plank flooring, which is pretty "live". I am looking to isolate the speakers from the floor as much as possible.  The speakers are on the T-stands and currently sit on spikes (on small metal pucks). I haven't researched whether granite bases would be good under the stands.

https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-vibration-isolation-speaker-podiums/

TOWNSHEND SAYS: Floated on Seismic Isolation Podiums, speakers are freed from the ever-present seismic activity and room/floor interactions that seriously degrade sound quality. The result is simply magical, allowing listeners to hear into their favourite music in a way they were never able to previously. When under your speakers, they will give you immediate improvements in overall sound by preventing speaker generated vibration from entering the floor and sound from entering your speakers. By eliminating the resonance between the speaker-cabinet mass and the floor, the sound will be noticeably clearer, much more tuneful, controlled and natural.  Bass boom is significantly reduced and there will be a far larger, much deeper and wider sound stage. The sound becomes natural and more enjoyable.

Review in AbSound: http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Townshend Seismic Podium - The Absolute Sound product of the year 2020 _ Speaker Vibration Isolation.pdf

Comment on a good audio forum on Facebook:

TOWNSHEND seismic podiums arrived today. Probably my most nerve wracking purchase ever. 12 hours listening and they have won me over.

Enhancing sound stage, deep bass has clearer start finish. Easily the most dramatic improvement you can make to your system. A lot of this is because the Podiums isolate so well they not only immensely improve detail coming directly from the speakers, but also dramatically eliminate vibration from the speakers exciting your floor, walls and ceiling. This takes the room out of the equation to a certain extent, something impossible to achieve any other way. 

Member Chuck Miller replied:
I took mine to a friend's place one time and watched him sit there literally slack-jawed and shaking his head. After a while he clicked on this one track and with the most incredulous look on his face said, "Do you have any idea how many times I've played this? I use it for everything and I'm hearing stuff I had no idea was even on there!" 

The hardest part is the price, it seems high for a tweak or accessory. But it's more like a $5k speaker upgrade, with another $5k of room acoustic treatment thrown in for free, making the Podiums a bargain.

 

So I asked: 

 I have the recommended Vandersteen T bases attached to my 2CEs, which are filled with lead shot and add quite a bit to the weight as an integrated unit. I might need the heavier cells. I'll have to weigh the bases separately and do some math. The Treo CT is free-standing...doesn't use a weighted base. FYI

•  

Chuck:

Mass loading is old school. If the mass is super stiff and dense like the carbon fiber BDR Shelf it can be better than nothing. But all Maas loading is really just altering resonant signature, hopefully in a way we like. Ultimately we're talking about coloring the sound. Podiums eliminate this, allowing the speaker to dissipate energy and stop vibrating faster. This has the effect of diminishing or removing coloration. This is why people hear not only a lot more detail, but instruments that sound much more natural, with greater truth of timbre. Both will almost certainly sound better on Podiums without the bases. In your case with C cells as long as the total doesn't go much above 93 lbs you'll be able to try both ways.

Me:

Good thoughts. If I empty the bases of the lead shot, they won't weigh much and they still provide the stability that the speakers need. Then they would probably be fine with the C cells. The T bases on the 2CE are important to be able to adjust the forward / backward lean angle, which varies depending on the distance from ears to tweeters, and ear height.

Chuck:

Podiums make adjustments like that super easy. Although you will probably find it better to level the Podiums first, and adjust lean angle on the speakers from there.

Patrick, are your speakers on a concrete slab or wood floor?  If they are on a slab put your money somewhere for a more significant improvement for the investment.  If they are on a wood floor (tympanic membrane) I have no experience to pass on.  RV

[TomicTime]

$$$$ much better saved on the way a treo upgrade… which uses  cabinet in cabinet constrained layer damping which turns vibration into heat vs the time smear of springs….  Also, i know Chuck aka Millercarbon… His knowledge and experience with anything Vandersteen is incredibly limited, biased and outdated in the extreme. My $1.50…. worth what yu paid for it..but then…. i’m not selling you anything….

[Patrick D]

2 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Patrick, are your speakers on a concrete slab or wood floor?  If they are on a slab put your money somewhere for a more significant improvement for the investment.  If they are on a wood floor (tympanic membrane) I have no experience to pass on.  RV

Richard...thanks for the reply. They are on a pretty live wood floor, joists and subfloor covered by wood plank flooring. I wish they were on a slab.

[Patrick D]

1 hour ago, TomicTime said:

$$$$ much better saved on the way a treo upgrade… which uses  cabinet in cabinet constrained layer damping which turns vibration into heat vs the time smear of springs….  Also, i know Chuck aka Millercarbon… His knowledge and experience with anything Vandersteen is incredibly limited, biased and outdated in the extreme. My $1.50…. worth what yu paid for it..but then…. i’m not selling you anything….

T: Ah, MillerCarbon! I remember him from Audiogon. He certainly could provoke "food fights", if it's the same guy. 😅

Thanks for the advice. I am looking before leaping for sure. Roger that on the super rigid cabinet of the Treo CT. I don't know if it mitigates the rather live floor in my room though?

[Patrick D]

2 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Patrick, are your speakers on a concrete slab or wood floor?  If they are on a slab put your money somewhere for a more significant improvement for the investment.  If they are on a wood floor (tympanic membrane) I have no experience to pass on.  RV

Richard,

If I did try these, I think the Sound Anchor stands are still necessary for stability and front-to-back lean. I would remove the lead shot from the stands though, so they weigh less. Would that make sense? Can the 2CE be used without the stands safely? (I don't know how leveling spikes would mount on the bottoms though). THX

[Patrick D]

2 hours ago, TomicTime said:

Also, i know Chuck aka Millercarbon

@TomicTime

You're right! I think he got booted from A'gon if I recall correctly. Correct me if I am wrong. 

Edited August 28 by Patrick D

[Patrick D]

3 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

FWIW, I ended up going with Mr. V's recommendation of using Granite plinths under my speakers

@GndrBob - Is your floor concrete, or suspended wood or something live? I've read about the granite, but don't know how well it works on a live floor. Thx

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, Patrick D said:

@GndrBob - Is your floor concrete, or suspended wood or something live? I've read about the granite, but don't know how well it works on a live floor. Thx

You could sneak up on it with a chunk of plywood and thin sheet of foam.
Then a granite plinth, or wooden one, or an engineered stone slab, could be decoupled from the floor.
Engineered stone, or wood, could be interesting as one could machine in some counterbored recesses for some old valve springs to hold it up off of the floor. But I would start with foam rubber a piece of plywood to see if there is anything shaking.
If the impedance curve of the speaker does not have jiggles, suggesting resonances, then the decoupling should not do much, as the floor is not likely to be excited by the speaker. 

Ideally one would have some chart of X/Y/Z vibration versus frequency for various speakers… or some measurements with accelerometers.
(Maybe one of those phone apps that use an iPhone’s accelerometer could be used?)

Obviously I am a bit non-plussed with the Townsend stuff, but I am sure it works better for rattling and buzzing cabinets.

Even shoving in a layer of “Green Glue” (TM) between the speaker and the stands should be doing something towards what the fancier looking gear does… and you have some $ left over.

[GdnrBob]

I am on wood joists in a 100 year old home with sagging floors. I used machine plates from Amazon that didn't cost much and found they did make things a bit 'tighter'. And, having leveled the granite, made adjusting the speakers much easier.

B

[Richard Vandersteen]

11 hours ago, Patrick D said:

T: Ah, MillerCarbon! I remember him from Audiogon. He certainly could provoke "food fights", if it's the same guy. 😅

Thanks for the advice. I am looking before leaping for sure. Roger that on the super rigid cabinet of the Treo CT. I don't know if it mitigates the rather live floor in my room though?

You should get your Treo CT's and know this before spending that kind of money.  RV

[TomicTime]

This forum is a VERY stark contrast to Audiogon, suffice to say over time….i’ve moved away from trying to help there… In short, it takes a LOT to get kicked off that place.

My time here is to leard, with very unique insights from Richard and fellow Vandersteen owners… not everyone can hear and appreciate time and phase…. 

Best in music to you all

Jim

[TomicTime]

i will add from a physics point of view the design of the Treo allows for closer positioning to the back wall , a more ridged structure analogy is rim shot vs middle of drun head whack… so better cabinet + better placement = better sound

[Patrick D]

Thanks all, for the input!

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, TomicTime said:

This forum is a VERY stark contrast to Audiogon, suffice to say over time….i’ve moved away from trying to help there… In short, it takes a LOT to get kicked off that place.

…

I do miss Tubebuffer’s post on there.
His one with the “chirp in speak” was a great one…IMO…

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/chirp-in-speak?sort_order=asc

Edited August 28 by Holmz

[Huang]

Classic had me laughing out loud.... dern cricket!

[TomicTime]

@tubebuffer was funny but out of phase with the times….

[Holmz]

31 minutes ago, TomicTime said:

@tubebuffer was funny but out of phase with the times….

Probably true…
I am like a 10 year old… 😄
 

[Brad O]

I wonder if posts underneath the floor are possible, as you can adjust the floor's resonant frequency.  

[Patrick D]

1 hour ago, Brad O said:

I wonder if posts underneath the floor are possible, as you can adjust the floor's resonant frequency.  

Should, woulda, coulda! We bought this house when it was under construction (I'd never done that, nor built a house), and if I had a do-over I would have:

• 1) Had them double the floor joists and cross-bracing for that room
• 2) Had them double up on the sub-floor thickness
• 3) Had them put double sheetrock on the walls (with acoustic damping material in between if possible)
• 4) Had the room wired with its own 20A circuit/s
• 5) Put a solid core door on the room (it's next to the living room)

Maybe next time, if I am lucky! I can't brace the floor now...no access from underneath. 

Edited August 29 by Patrick D
typo

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

Should, woulda, coulda! We bought this house when it was under construction (I'd never done that, nor built a house), and if I had a do-over I would have:

• 1) Had them double the floor joists and cross-bracing for that room
• 2) Had them double up on the sub-floor thickness
• 3) Had them put double sheetrock on the walls (with acoustic damping material in between if possible)
• 4) Had the room wired with its own 20A circuit/s
• 5) Put a solid core door on the room (it's next to the living room)

Maybe next time, if I am lucky! I can't brace the floor now...no access from underneath. 

Patrick, depending on the span you should be good.  Are you sure you have a problem as some audiophiles are disabled by their imagined problems.  Doubled floor joists would put them on 12-inch or 8-inch centers which would be quite solid.  RV

[JonM]

On 8/27/2024 at 10:41 PM, Patrick D said:

Richard...thanks for the reply. They are on a pretty live wood floor, joists and subfloor covered by wood plank flooring. I wish they were on a slab.

EDIT: Just read you don't have access from below.  Nevermind my post below!

 

Do you have access to the underside of the subfloor?  Say, from a crawlspace?  I added 3/4 inch plywood with Green Glue and screws and got significantly less floor bounce.

That was previous house.  Current house has nice Advantech subfloors, but I will do this same upgrade again eventually.

Edited August 29 by JonM
EDIT: Just read you don't have access from below.  Nevermind my post below!