In the digital age, is a pre-amp necessary for optimal sound?

[olds1959special]

I stopped using my pre-amp and am going direct to my amps from the DAC using the digital volume control. I can't hear lost bits, it just sounds more clean. The bass is more polite and has less grunt, but overall everything is better (I think!)

Edited September 4 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

Does ^that^ mean you pulled out the tube job you had in the middle?
(Or am I thinking of a different system?)

[olds1959special]

2 hours ago, Holmz said:

Does ^that^ mean you pulled out the tube job you had in the middle?
(Or am I thinking of a different system?)

yea, got rid of that

[Holmz]

If you had screechy speakers, then that may have helped to quell them into behaving.
But you don’t...

While a bit of a circular argument, a good preamp is usually better (good).
But if it is only just marginally ‘so-so’, then it may be better to just leave it out, as you found.

Of course as you get more sources, like more that one, then a preamp gets pretty useful.

[olds1959special]

not sure how a pre-amp can be good, if the dac is able to control the volume and output the proper voltage, how is it better to use a pre-amp, which can only add distortion? I do have multiple digital sources (usb and optical) and the dac can switch between those.

Edited September 5 by olds1959special

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, olds1959special said:

not sure how a pre-amp can be good, if the dac is able to control the volume and output the proper voltage, how is it better to use a pre-amp, which can only add distortion? I do have multiple digital sources (usb and optical) and the dac can switch between those.

olds1995special, my dad had one of those, but you may be correct at your price point a digital volume (notorious for mediocre sound) control may sound better than a low-cost pre-amp inserted in the signal path.  Only your ears can know.  In most cases having a transparent pre-amp with low output impedance (better to drive cables with) and a state-of-the-art volume control more than make up sonically for the added component in the chain.  Digital volume controls offer max resolution only when at max volume.  Like in life there are always exceptions.  RV

[Holmz]

IMO: If you don’t have things like analogue sources that cannot be routed through the DAC, then don’t get a pre-amp.
I needed to run a TT, so a preamp was needed.

It was not until I got an Audible Illusions (line stage) that it got noticeably good. But they are still likely to be out of budget even with a 25+ year old used one.
And similar other older and used stuff as well (Ayre, Belles, CJ, etc.) are also likely not going to really be needed for switching, and if the system sound good using the DAC then stick with it.

On the other hand, if you listen to it a very low volume, then a preamp could help, and if it had a “loudness” button it, then even better.

But if it doesn’t sound like it can get any better now… then it may be better to stop now.

And if you decided to move away from the 4 mono amps, then an integrated amp would have all the switching, streaming, and more… even room correction in some.
it is almost too much choice…

[olds1959special]

My dac is based on Sabre ES9039Q2M.

https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/the-sabre-dac-digital-volume-control-better-than-analog/

Edited September 6 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

17 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

olds1995special, my dad had one of those, but you may be correct at your price point a digital volume (notorious for mediocre sound) control may sound better than a low-cost pre-amp inserted in the signal path.  Only your ears can know.  In most cases having a transparent pre-amp with low output impedance (better to drive cables with) and a state-of-the-art volume control more than make up sonically for the added component in the chain.  Digital volume controls offer max resolution only when at max volume.  Like in life there are always exceptions.  RV

My dac is stated to have an output impedance of 100ohms, which is low, right? (I'm using a pair of splitters, which I understand only makes a difference of 0.08db and no change in impedance?) The volume control is 32-bit so I think that makes a difference too.  

Edited September 6 by olds1959special

[Richard Vandersteen]

What you hear is what you hear!  I am trying to explain why one may want a pre-amp (other than switching) even if the system is digital.  As I always council the ultimate arbiter is each of us based on what we hear.  RV

[olds1959special]

27 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

What you hear is what you hear!  I am trying to explain why one may want a pre-amp (other than switching) even if the system is digital.  As I always council the ultimate arbiter is each of us based on what we hear.  RV

I do hear an improvement in some ways, but it may be more of a side step. The presentation with my dac seems kind of holographic and not as visceral, if that makes sense. I like the clarity I'm getting, especially in the high frequencies. It's easy to hear dialogue and details in music, even at low volume levels. But there is a punchiness that's missing, maybe. Still, I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a pre-amp is going to really "improve" things that much, although it can color the sound, in the end, I may want to come back to the simplest solution, which is no preamp.

Edited September 6 by olds1959special

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, olds1959special said:

I do hear an improvement in some ways, but it may be more of a side step. The presentation with my dac seems kind of holographic and not as visceral, if that makes sense. I like the clarity I'm getting, especially in the high frequencies. It's easy to hear dialogue and details in music, even at low volume levels. But there is a punchiness that's missing, maybe. Still, I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a pre-amp is going to really "improve" things that much, although it can color the sound, in the end, I may want to come back to the simplest solution, which is no preamp.

Clarity vs. punchiness make your choice but my experience is a transparent pre-amp nearly always improves the overall experience.  Obviously, the budget pre-amps you have tried weren't up to the task.  RV

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, olds1959special said:

I do hear an improvement in some ways, but it may be more of a side step. The presentation with my dac seems kind of holographic and not as visceral, if that makes sense. 

Holographic is good.

So you have a win there.

 

4 hours ago, olds1959special said:

… I like the clarity I'm getting, especially in the high frequencies. It's easy to hear dialogue and details in music, even at low volume levels. But there is a punchiness that's missing, maybe. Still, I'm having a hard time understanding how adding a pre-amp is going to really "improve" things that much, although it can color the sound, in the end, I may want to come back to the simplest solution, which is no preamp.

Does your DAC also have some EQ settings?
And where exactly is the punchlines missing?

If there is some mid or low frequency band where it needs more umphf, then you could futz around with the EQ, which costs nothing and could bring you come gains…
(Might cost you some time with REW and a microphone.)

[olds1959special]

In a frenzy I listed my old pre-amp on eBay and got a bid already, so it appears to be sold. The model is discontinued but they make another one that has balanced inputs and since my DAC has balanced outputs that might provide an improvement. I was hoping not to need a pre-amp though. My DAC has filters but no EQ.  The punchiness is missing in the bass I would say.

Edited September 7 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

Someone posted this on another forum "These days there's a bunch of DACs that make numerous classic preamps green with envy in the performance department (pretty much all but those with 4-gang volume pots), and the DO100 Pro is one of them...If the volume setting is remembered reliably, you have nothing to worry about. There have been a few instances of documented oopsies with certain models. It goes without saying that issues in this regard is something that manufacturers should have an eye out for by themselves."

 

Since I've found the volume control to be reliable, I think I should be okay. I'm sure I can get nice coloration or oomph from a good pre-amp, but why sacrifice clarity? It's a hard decision to make.

Edited September 7 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, olds1959special said:

In a frenzy I listed my old pre-amp on eBay and got a bid already, so it appears to be sold. The model is discontinued but they make another one that has balanced inputs and since my DAC has balanced outputs that might provide an improvement. I was hoping not to need a pre-amp though. My DAC has filters but no EQ.  The punchiness is missing in the bass I would say.

“Filters” are likely PEQ filters/
Which DAC was it again?

You’ll likely need some way to measure things, but I suppose you o could just try some various settings and see if you are going in the right direction, or away from it.
You could probably use an iPhone or iPad app if you did not want to use a fancy mic.

[Holmz]

https://www.manua.ls/smsl/do100-pro/manual?p=20

No PEQs.

[olds1959special]

I'm enjoying the sound improvements a lot every day from going direct from the dac, even if it's a bit flat and lifeless, there is more of everything and I find myself able to hear clarity and details better. I've heard RME DAC's might be even better, though. One comment on reddit says 

"IME the Chinese DACs have poor digital volume controls…the sound tends to lack dimension and body.

My RME DAC has no such problem and makes an excellent preamp"

But the idea is the same, no dedicated pre-amp, everything built into the DAC, with digital volume control.

 

Edited September 7 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

I have an RME, but the SMSL is pretty well liked by many people.
In fact I got another RME so I have 2 now.

I would probably stick with SMSL unless you wanted to be able to use PEQs.

Somewhere I have the PEQ settings for the 2C and the VCC5.
I put them into the HT AVP.

Edited September 8 by Holmz

[olds1959special]

I plugged my preamp back in to test things again but I shortened the RCA connection to the dac by awkwardly placing the preamp on top of the smaller dac. It looks funky but at least it sounds better. 

 

Sonically, the sound is more relaxed and has more body. I actually think I like what the pre-amp does. Unfortunately there is some slight loss of fidelity in some way but overall the preamp makes the sound more effortless.

I'm trying to remove my listing from eBay even though it got a bid (talking to the bidder) because I want to keep using the preamp.

I guess an integrated dac preamp would be best, or at least balanced cables going between, but for now this is working.

 

 

Edited September 8 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

If your DAC is using digital volume and is more than 12dB down, then you could use an inline attenuator.
https://www.hlabs.com/products/attenuators/

That would allow you to use less digital attenuation (by 12dB). And the DAC would be outputting a hotter signal.
Which should be closer to being the optimum set up for using no premap.

 

1 hour ago, olds1959special said:

I plugged my preamp back in to test things again but I shortened the RCA connection to the dac by awkwardly placing the preamp on top of the smaller dac. It looks funky but at least it sounds better. 

 

Sonically, the sound is more relaxed and has more body. I actually think I like what the pre-amp does. Unfortunately there is some slight loss of fidelity in some way but overall the preamp makes the sound more effortless.

….

Generally I find that with good preamps, it’s hard to tell much, if any, difference between them.
Granted my sample size is small. And the two preamps, seem pretty good.
But there are tones of good used preamps around.

If you want to run balanced, and that preamp you have is RCAs, then in the long term you may want to move it on.
Probably best to try and demo some gear.

[olds1959special]

11 minutes ago, Holmz said:

If your DAC is using digital volume and is more than 12dB down, then you could use an inline attenuator.
https://www.hlabs.com/products/attenuators/

That would allow you to use less digital attenuation (by 12dB). And the DAC would be outputting a hotter signal.
Which should be closer to being the optimum set up for using no premap.

 

Generally I find that with good preamps, it’s hard to tell much, if any, difference between them.
Granted my sample size is small. And the two preamps, seem pretty good.
But there are tones of good used preamps around.

If you want to run balanced, and that preamp you have is RCAs, then in the long term you may want to move it on.
Probably best to try and demo some gear.

the dac has balanced output but the amps don't have balanced inputs so I'm not sure I'd gain a big improvement, since I'm running really short half foot RCA cables right now.

[olds1959special]

15 minutes ago, Holmz said:

If your DAC is using digital volume and is more than 12dB down, then you could use an inline attenuator.
https://www.hlabs.com/products/attenuators/

That would allow you to use less digital attenuation (by 12dB). And the DAC would be outputting a hotter signal.
Which should be closer to being the optimum set up for using no premap.

 

Generally I find that with good preamps, it’s hard to tell much, if any, difference between them.
Granted my sample size is small. And the two preamps, seem pretty good.
But there are tones of good used preamps around.

If you want to run balanced, and that preamp you have is RCAs, then in the long term you may want to move it on.
Probably best to try and demo some gear.

good idea, but not sure if it's worth the trouble to try attenuators at this point! I ended my auction (paid a fee! ouch!) but will keep the pre-amp, even if it looks ugly and awkward sitting on sit of the less wide smsl dac.

Using .5ft RCA is a bit better than a 1ft RCA, so...

Edited September 8 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

It’s ugly and annoying that it’s like this! But everything affects the sound! I wish they came in the same size box.

Edited September 8 by olds1959special

[ctsooner]

I’ve done extensive listening with him without digital volume controls. I’ve listened to lower cost systems all the way up to mega cost systems that are north of 1 million in total. I’ve never heard a digital volume control sound as good as a system with a decent preamp. If you can’t afford a decent preamp then maybe you are better off going direct. I currently have to go direct because I’m waiting for the Vandersteen preamp to be released to the wild. I noticed a major difference in subtleties that make the difference in loving or liking music. These are my ears, no one else’s. 
 

If you are happy with your sound, then go with it. You can always add later on.