HT Wife Friendly Living Room(Photo) - Help Request

[ATX]

Vandersteen Living Room Wife Friendly HT System.  I have a 2nd Vandersteen System crammed into a converted playroom which is posted on this board, as well.

Speakers: 5.2 Vandersteen with Linn Surrounds

• Mains - VSM Signatures
• VCC2 Center Channel
• V2W Subwoofers x 2
• Linn Unik Surrounds

AVR: Yamaha RXA - 3070

• 9.2 Channels - Utilizing 5.2
• 2 Channel Power - 20Hz - 20Hz - 150W @ 8ohms, .06% THD
• YPAO Multi-point
• 192 kzHz 24 Bit DAC for all channels

Sources:

• Sonos Connect - Gen. 1
• Roku Ultra
• Spotify - Can Air Stream Spotify Direct to AVR
• TV - 2024 LG C3  - currently only utilized a s monitor

Challenges:

• Music sounds like Doo-Doo. I have tried every Yamaha DSP Setting from Direct to The Roxy and nothing sounds good.  Tried YPAO set-up and that sounded even worse.
• Very limited Speaker relocation options from current positions. 
• Limited space for new equipment - The Yamaha(width) barely fits 

Options:

• I have an extra B&K 125.2 STR Amp with Class A Pre-driver & Class A/B MOSFET Power Output Stages
• Can add 1 Standard size audio component and 1 smaller form audio component to the Credenza pictured in the photo
• Can replace the Yamaha with 1 or 2 audio components
• Improve the Yamaha Settings 
• Hoping the V Forum can help a Brother out…

Thank you for replying….

[Richard Vandersteen]

Stereo is always going to be so, so on music because the signal path is very complex even when defeated.  Use a stereo pre-amp (with a HT unity gain input for your HT left and right front channel) and power amplifier for 2 channel listening.  Many may recommend a different A/V receiver as they do vary in sonic signature, but this is rearranging the chairs on the deck, IMO.  RV

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, ATX said:

Vandersteen Living Room Wife Friendly HT System.  I have a 2nd Vandersteen System crammed into a converted playroom which is posted on this board, as well.

Speakers: 5.2 Vandersteen with Linn Surrounds

• Mains - VSM Signatures
• VCC2 Center Channel
• V2W Subwoofers x 2
• Linn Unik Surrounds

AVR: Yamaha RXA - 3070

• 9.2 Channels - Utilizing 5.2
• 2 Channel Power - 20Hz - 20Hz - 150W @ 8ohms, .06% THD
• YPAO Multi-point
• 192 kzHz 24 Bit DAC for all channels

I do’;t know anything about the Yamaha..

 

4 hours ago, ATX said:

Sources:

• Sonos Connect - Gen. 1
• Roku Ultra
• Spotify - Can Air Stream Spotify Direct to AVR
• TV - 2024 LG C3  - currently only utilized a s monitor

Challenges:

• Music sounds like Doo-Doo. I have tried every Yamaha DSP Setting from Direct to The Roxy and nothing sounds good.  Tried YPAO set-up and that sounded even worse.
• Very limited Speaker relocation options from current positions. 
• Limited space for new equipment - The Yamaha(width) barely fits 

Options:

• I have an extra B&K 125.2 STR Amp with Class A Pre-driver & Class A/B MOSFET Power Output Stages

Try  that B&K, IME it should sounding good on two channel before  adding in more speakers.

 

4 hours ago, ATX said:

• Can add 1 Standard size audio component and 1 smaller form audio component to the Credenza pictured in the photo
• Can replace the Yamaha with 1 or 2 audio components
• Improve the Yamaha Settings 
• Hoping the V Forum can help a Brother out…

Thank you for replying….

 

I have run the cheap AIYAMA class-D amps for surrounds and it sounded dandy.
If the Yamaha has RCA outputs, then I would try RCA to 1/8” earphone jack and get it sounding good on earbuds if there are settings in the Yamaha for that.

It could be possible that the mix of speaker and their crossovers has some of the speakers out of phase with each other.
But that should not be a problem with 2 channel…. Or is the “music sounding like doo doo” happening in 5-channel music?

[ATX]

Will do, TY!

[ATX]

5 Channel actually sounds decent but it’s not Vandersteen good. I like the earphone idea and will try it…

[Holmz]

7 hours ago, ATX said:

5 Channel actually sounds decent but it’s not Vandersteen good. I like the earphone idea and will try it…

If the ear buds sound rotten then the speakers probably will too.
(They should be dandy though.)

If 2 channels are not making a focussed sound, and makes a diffuse sound, then check the polarity is good…
Maybe one speaker is backwards, etc.
If in doubt then swap speaker 4 and 5 into their place.

IME I would start with a 2.0, and then go to 2.1
Then add the center channel to make it a 3.1… any backwards step would be  a sign to stop and assess.
Maybe the center channel could be out of phase, but I am not sure.

I am no expert in the formats, but if the center and the L/R mains are playing at the same time, then any “phase mismatch” could result in suck-outs.
I would assume (??) that the channels 4 and 5 would be playing mostly their own stuff, and would not be an issue.

[ATX]

TY Holmz, I checked and everything is correctly connected.  

[Holmz]

27 minutes ago, ATX said:

TY Holmz, I checked and everything is correctly connected.  

Yeah that is good… but I meant to also check with the ears. As is it possible to have either a speaker wired wrong, or an amp that is inverting, etc.
Is the image focussed in 2 channel?
If you swapped one of the two mains+ and -, then it should be pretty apparent if it WAS correct before hand

[ATX]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:24 AM, Holmz said:

Yeah that is good… but I meant to also check with the ears. As is it possible to have either a speaker wired wrong, or an amp that is inverting, etc.
Is the image focussed in 2 channel?
If you swapped one of the two mains+ and -, then it should be pretty apparent if it WAS correct before hand

Update: I turned the DSP off, switched to Source Direct, changed the VSM to “Small” and go figure, it actually sounds pretty good. TY for the responses….

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, ATX said:

Update: I turned the DSP off, switched to Source Direct, changed the VSM to “Small” and go figure, it actually sounds pretty good. TY for the responses….

Happy days!

The technical acronym for that is “RTFM”, which is what I often get told. 😪

I did slap in the PEQ setting that someone did for 2Cs, which flatten the frequency response, so some minor judicious use of DSP seemed to be fine.
But it is only with the AVR/AVP and HT or streaming.
The analogue goes through no DSP.

It’s sort of like putting chilli, (orange and cinnamon) into a chocolate cake… or hot chocolate milk.
A little bit really adds a gourmet subtle goodness, but there is a tipping point that is quickly reached where it can be too much.
Or application of perfume, or absinth in the Sazerac… The DSP has generally worked better for me in pretty light quantities, rather than heavy handed and brutish/savage.

[GdnrBob]

19 hours ago, Holmz said:

It’s sort of like putting chilli, (orange and cinnamon) into a chocolate cake…

Nice analogy. 

Bob

[ATX]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:19 PM, Holmz said:

Happy days!

The technical acronym for that is “RTFM”, which is what I often get told. 😪

I did slap in the PEQ setting that someone did for 2Cs, which flatten the frequency response, so some minor judicious use of DSP seemed to be fine.
But it is only with the AVR/AVP and HT or streaming.
The analogue goes through no DSP.

It’s sort of like putting chilli, (orange and cinnamon) into a chocolate cake… or hot chocolate milk.
A little bit really adds a gourmet subtle goodness, but there is a tipping point that is quickly reached where it can be too much.
Or application of perfume, or absinth in the Sazerac… The DSP has generally worked better for me in pretty light quantities, rather than heavy handed and brutish/savage.

Hi Holmz:  Any chance you could link the 2Ce PEQ settings someone posted? I have not been able to find them in any forum.  TY!

[moviebluedog]

My speaker/girlfriend friendly family room is similar to yours.

In my system, I swapped out my Marantz AVR for a Schiit Audio Syn pre-amp. Much less expensive and is mostly analog components inside. The only digital components are the USB-C output and the optical output.

The music (2-channel) sound improved greatly. I use a Y-splitter for my two non-Vandersteen subs, then run my main Vandersteen VRL CT speakers through the Syn and my Schiit Audio Vidar amplifier. Surrounds (currently) are non-Vandersteen. However, using the Syn is a remarkable improvement over the former AVR in both stereo and multi-channel sound.

The result has been much more pleasing music and movie/TV audio through my VLR CTs. Music is now engaging and doesn't sound like it's held back by the former AVR. The CT's let the music flow. Movies are incredibly clean sounding. Even streaming, depending on the service, sounds very good. Plus the Syn is very compact. 

My own experience with Yamaha and its DSP or "pure" playback  has been mixed over the years. Then again, my respectable Marantz didn't sound all that wonderful on music. I've been told and have read that many AVRs generally digitize 2-channel music, hence the quality loss (doo-doo). If you play music, analog pathway is the way to go in my experience. 

Hopefully I'm not breaking forum rules here by mentioning another audio company's pre-amp. I'm just so pleased with the Vandersteen and Schiit Audio combination. 

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, ATX said:

Hi Holmz:  Any chance you could link the 2Ce PEQ settings someone posted? I have not been able to find them in any forum.  TY!

Pierre linked it in post 32…
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/vandersteen-2c-klippel-data-by-hardisj.28030/page-2

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/develop/datas/eq/Vandersteen 2c/iir-autoeq.txt

EQ for Vandersteen 2c computed from ErinsAudioCorner data
Preference Score 4.27 with EQ 5.89
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.26
Dated: 2024-03-19-16:36:57

Preamp: -4.6 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc    32 Hz Gain +3.00 dB Q 2.81
Filter  2: ON PK Fc    49 Hz Gain +2.00 dB Q 0.60
Filter  3: ON PK Fc   289 Hz Gain -2.26 dB Q 2.02
Filter  4: ON PK Fc   470 Hz Gain +2.99 dB Q 3.00
Filter  5: ON PK Fc  1010 Hz Gain +2.99 dB Q 2.94
Filter  6: ON PK Fc  1121 Hz Gain -5.16 dB Q 3.00
Filter  7: ON PK Fc  4342 Hz Gain -2.80 dB Q 3.00

 

The VCC5 PEQs are somewhere (else)???

I actually used the C2e for the VSMs, but it could classy if @Richard Vandersteen or @Brad O includes the PEQ settings in the manuals for people that use the gear with some DSP.
I know many people do not use a DSP, and I am bit spoiled having the option of going through the AVR/AVP or direct… without a DSP.

But I think that flattening the frequency response with a DSP and having good time-n-phase response should be similar to starting with good frequency response, and using DIRAC live to improve the time domain response… at least for people that already have the DSP and digital gear..
I’d like to be corrected if I am wrong.

I’d also like to find the Treo CT PEQs…

 

[ATX]

On 9/18/2024 at 12:37 AM, Holmz said:

Pierre linked it in post 32…
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/vandersteen-2c-klippel-data-by-hardisj.28030/page-2

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/develop/datas/eq/Vandersteen 2c/iir-autoeq.txt

EQ for Vandersteen 2c computed from ErinsAudioCorner data
Preference Score 4.27 with EQ 5.89
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.26
Dated: 2024-03-19-16:36:57

Preamp: -4.6 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc    32 Hz Gain +3.00 dB Q 2.81
Filter  2: ON PK Fc    49 Hz Gain +2.00 dB Q 0.60
Filter  3: ON PK Fc   289 Hz Gain -2.26 dB Q 2.02
Filter  4: ON PK Fc   470 Hz Gain +2.99 dB Q 3.00
Filter  5: ON PK Fc  1010 Hz Gain +2.99 dB Q 2.94
Filter  6: ON PK Fc  1121 Hz Gain -5.16 dB Q 3.00
Filter  7: ON PK Fc  4342 Hz Gain -2.80 dB Q 3.00

 

The VCC5 PEQs are somewhere (else)???

I actually used the C2e for the VSMs, but it could classy if @Richard Vandersteen or @Brad O includes the PEQ settings in the manuals for people that use the gear with some DSP.
I know many people do not use a DSP, and I am bit spoiled having the option of going through the AVR/AVP or direct… without a DSP.

But I think that flattening the frequency response with a DSP and having good time-n-phase response should be similar to starting with good frequency response, and using DIRAC live to improve the time domain response… at least for people that already have the DSP and digital gear..
I’d like to be corrected if I am wrong.

I’d also like to find the Treo CT PEQs…

 

TY Holmz, very helpful and interesting!

[ATX]

On 9/10/2024 at 4:34 PM, Richard Vandersteen said:

Stereo is always going to be so, so on music because the signal path is very complex even when defeated.  Use a stereo pre-amp (with a HT unity gain input for your HT left and right front channel) and power amplifier for 2 channel listening.  Many may recommend a different A/V receiver as they do vary in sonic signature, but this is rearranging the chairs on the deck, IMO.  RV

Switched the AVR for an ARCAM Pre-Amp, Amp set-up and it’s much better. 

Have you considered expanding your on-wall speaker line to include a three driver design or dual woofer?   Are on-wall speakers more challenging to engineer than traditional designs?

Edited November 1, 2024 by ATX

[Holmz]

Bass notes get less and less locatable was the frequency goes lower and lower.

I would suspect that any dinosaur sneaking up behind the sofa will ‘get the curry flowing’ whether the sound is coming out of the surround, or mostly out of the surround, and the sub supplying the footsteps and rumbles…

[Richard Vandersteen]

4 minutes ago, Holmz said:

Bass notes get less and less locatable was the frequency goes lower and lower.

I would suspect that any dinosaur sneaking up behind the sofa will ‘get the curry flowing’ whether the sound is coming out of the surround, or mostly out of the surround, and the sub supplying the footsteps and rumbles…

No, because once they have a sub added they are three ways.  Double woofers that are also doing midrange cause time smear and can't be aligned which is not what Vandersteen is about.

RV

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 minute ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

No, because once they have a sub added they are three ways.  Double woofers that are also doing midrange cause time smear and can't be aligned which is not what Vandersteen is about.

RV

Answer for ATX above.

RV

[ATX]

9 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

No, because once they have a sub added they are three ways.  Double woofers that are also doing midrange cause time smear and can't be aligned which is not what Vandersteen is about.

RV

TY for the explanation and reminding me of the benefit for utilizing your CCs &  SWs.   I asked the question regarding on wall speaker options because I am able to compare the VSM Sigs to my V2Ces  which are both driven by similar Arcam processors & amps.  

[Oregon]

On 9/10/2024 at 12:18 PM, ATX said:

Vandersteen Living Room Wife Friendly HT System.  I have a 2nd Vandersteen System crammed into a converted playroom which is posted on this board, as well.

Speakers: 5.2 Vandersteen with Linn Surrounds

• Linn Unik Surrounds

 

 

To what does 5.2 pertain? 5A?

Unik, Linn surrounds?

Thanks for sharing,

Cody

 

[Holmz]

9 hours ago, Oregon said:

To what does 5.2 pertain? 5A?

Base-speakers . Subs . Atmos speakers
So 5.2 is FL, C, FR, RL, RR and the .2 part is 2 subwoofers.
Is there were 3 subs and 2 speakers on the ceiling, and  no center channel, but a LF/RF/LR/RR it would be 4.3.2

That #.#.# talk is all home theatre talk.

[Holmz]

13 hours ago, ATX said:

TY for the explanation and reminding me of the benefit for utilizing your CCs &  SWs.   I asked the question regarding on wall speaker options because I am able to compare the VSM Sigs to my V2Ces  which are both driven by similar Arcam processors & amps.  

Regular VSMs (not CT) seem to work pretty good, but I am not sure how much high freq content is in the surrounds.
Generally there is not much low frequency content… mostly twigs snapping, etc.
Maybe helicopters would be full spectrum, but the sub notes still seem like are going to the subs.

Note: I was on a budget, so I did a VCC-5 (CT), and regular VSMs, as the center channel seemed more important than the surrounds.
(And subs are probably as important as anything, IMO)