Topping PRE90+EXT90

[olds1959special]

A good performing pre-amp with two sets of RCA outputs, balanced inputs, with remote control that is somewhat well priced. Maybe an upgrade over Schiit Saga S?

[Holmz]

There have been some dramas associated with at least their (TOPPINGS) well rated amplifier and ASR.

The Topping was hissing like a basket of vipers at a Pentacostal revival, which is what others have also reported on ASR.
It got the “golfing Pink Panther” and then the complaints and failures rolled in.
There were also a bevy of dramas with returns, so personally I will be steering clear of them myself.

Luckily I ordered both a Topping and the AIYAMA amps via Amazon, and returned the TOPPING and kept the AIYAMAs.
Hence I am not inclined to try another Topping product myself… ever.

If you like the SMSL and cannot get some place to demo what it does through a pre-amp, then IME it might be better to just keep running it as you are.
The lack of PEQs make it somewhat limited, IME.
 

Quote

For the DAC I got an RME ADI-2 Pro.
It has PEQs and a loudness feature, as explained on page 13 onwards.

The link is for MAC, but there is a windows version.
https://rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profs_e.pdf

The price point of the Fosi and AIYAMA, and Topping, means that costs are being cut somewhere. Either things that we do not want to think about like children on the assembly lines, design and development, or support, or ??
I suppose that I am OK with that, and assume it could end up in the trash, and floating in the ocean.
And generally consider that sort of stuff a waste of financial resources, or at best “a temporary bandaid” to get by with, until I can find a keeper piece.

Other’s have mentioned a lot of used gear that is well regarded.
That stuff is likely around the same $ as the new Topping stuff, but I think it could likely be a lot better sounding.
The Topping stuff measures great though.

Both of my tube pre-amps have distortion that also measures very low, but it seems to sound different in a good way that the SS stuff it replaced.
But there are also very good SS preamps on the new and the used market. 

[ctsooner]

What price range are you talking about here please?  That’s needed when asking for recommendations.  There are some outstanding options out there depending on your budget.   Heck, I’ve used the NAD and Rotel preamps over the years and loved them  in systems they would normally be heard in.   I too would stay clear of the Toppings gear.  Just a quick Google will show up the issues.

[BKDad]

I have two Topping DACs that I use for measurement purposes.  They only sound OK, so I don't listen to them.  They sure have great noise and harmonic distortion performance, though.

Isn't it funny how the usual measurements don't really tell the entire story about the sound qualities?

One thing I did find is that in order to really get good performance out of these DACs, you have to add USB isolation.  Otherwise, there's a lot of common mode noise and junk that ends up at the DAC output.  Clearly audible.  The catch here is that a proper USB isolator either costs a lot more than these DACs or you have to build it yourself.  The other solution is to use a floating digital source for the DAC, like a phone or laptop with no power or wired network connections.  Changing the source almost certainly changes the sound, but it's normally really only changing the seasoning one way or another, rather than revealing the actual signal.  Oh - balanced audio connections can help, too.  Sometimes.

You really can measure this stuff, too.  Here's an example of an actual Topping DAC.

 

 No test tone is coming out of the DAC in either curve, so you should just see the noise floor.  But - Oops!  

This is an averaged measurement, like it says in the lower left corner.  A measurement made over time that captures the peaks is too gruesome for a G-rated website such as this one is.

The measurement above was made with an A-D converter having moderate common mode rejection, not Audio Precision good for that parameter.  (You really do get better performance out of a $30K plus piece of test gear compared to one that costs a few hundred dollars.  Personally, I'd put that $30K toward a pair of Kentos and trade in the Quatro CT's.  Just sayin', as they just say.  I also am not in the audio manufacturing or reviewing biz, either.)  The results are almost certainly worse when a DAC like this is used in a system with even worse common mode performance.

These deficiencies don't usually show up in tests made with Audio Precision test gear, unless you specifically set things up to find them.  That's because Audio Precision test gear has very, very high common mode rejection at their audio inputs.  Outstanding design and execution work.  That's really a good thing for a piece of test gear, since it reduces the effect of the test gear imperfections to a large degree.  But, since so little consumer audio gear has such great CMRR, and the system functions are spread across several boxes connected in random ways, at least in regard to various current paths, the test results are not entirely representative of what you'll hear in your system.  That's not on Audio Precision - it's on the people not really using the AP test gear in a thorough manner.  

This is one reason why adding a preamp between a DAC and the power amplifier often changes the system sound.  It affects the common mode noise loops.  In some cases, the preamp does a great job in rejecting common mode signals.  Other cases?  Perhaps different, but not better.  I can tell you that if I connect my own ADC to a laptop computer that is entirely floating and running on batteries to make this measurement , this problem does not show up.  No connections means no common mode signal return path through the AC mains.  There probably was a really good reason why those great classic recording studios we all love had all those transformers isolating all the audio inputs and outputs.  These transformers aren't perfect, but they did minimize other problems that could well be worse.  This was before digital equipment ever entered the studios, too.

To be fair, these issues are very often found with much more expensive DACs and the digital source equipment that feeds them bits.  Maybe even most DACs - dunno.  So, this isn't a knock on Topping.  They run the tests they describe and show the results.

I will never, ever understand why these system integration factors are not measured and reported on.  Why are they so ignored throughout the industry and hobby?  It's sorta like how the time and phase performance of loudspeakers are just pretty much cavalierly dismissed by (most) companies, reviewers, and users.  I really don't get it.

But, maybe a lot of people really don't care about getting the best sound quality they can for their budget and circumstances.  They may like bloated bass, tipped up treble, and masked details.  I'm not being facetious about that, either.  That's OK, but they should be ingenuous about it, at least to themselves.  Liking chocolate syrup atop Kobe beef is really OK, too.  To each their own.

OK, more than you ever wanted to read or see, I know.  But, I saved all these measurement files with the idea that somebody, somewhere, sometime might be interested.  I guess that is kinda like showing guests photos from your vacation.  Oops.  Back to our original programming.

[Sbank]

@olds1959special From the other thread it sounds like you're hoping to find something under $1K.  You're right, that's a tough combo of needs at budget because most balanced gear is pricier and more of the more vintage gear is both single-eneded only and/or doesn't have remote. Besides these, I saw a few built 5ch for HT that meet the needs, but can't help but think too much of the cost is based on extra parts vs. better parts and design.  

Here's a couple: 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650129108-primare-pre32-preamplifier/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650128841-simaudio-moon-350p-preamp/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650088669-balanced-audio-technology-vk-3i-line-stage-tube-preamplifier/images/5010012/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650126080-bryston-bp-25-stereo-preamplifier/

[BKDad]

There's this one, too:

Saga 2

May not be exactly what you want - dunno.

Note: I've never seen any piece of Schitt gear.  It's possible that I was within a few miles of one, but not to my knowledge.  So, this could be great, good, OK, bad, or dreadful.  Dunno. 

 

[olds1959special]

On 9/15/2024 at 9:16 AM, BKDad said:

There's this one, too:

Saga 2

May not be exactly what you want - dunno.

Note: I've never seen any piece of Schitt gear.  It's possible that I was within a few miles of one, but not to my knowledge.  So, this could be great, good, OK, bad, or dreadful.  Dunno. 

 

It would be more enticing if it had four RCA outputs like my Saga S does.

[BKDad]

20 minutes ago, olds1959special said:

It would be more enticing if it had four RCA outputs like my Saga S does.

I have just the solution:  Don't buy it then!

Try building your own.

[olds1959special]

8 minutes ago, BKDad said:

I have just the solution:  Don't buy it then!

Try building your own.

I am not planning on buying anything, for as long as I can.

The only time I ever built my own gear completely unaided was when I made a cmoy headphone amp. (I did also build a condenser mic in college but got a lot of help from the teacher when circuit diagrams confused me)  I made it using a Radio Shack breadboard, some parts, and instructions I found online, and put it in a generic plastic case, and it was powered by batteries or power supply. I enjoyed trying different op-amps in it. I don't think I would ever do it again.

Edited September 17 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

On 9/15/2024 at 8:58 AM, Sbank said:

@olds1959special From the other thread it sounds like you're hoping to find something under $1K.  You're right, that's a tough combo of needs at budget because most balanced gear is pricier and more of the more vintage gear is both single-eneded only and/or doesn't have remote. Besides these, I saw a few built 5ch for HT that meet the needs, but can't help but think too much of the cost is based on extra parts vs. better parts and design.  

Here's a couple: 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650129108-primare-pre32-preamplifier/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650128841-simaudio-moon-350p-preamp/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650088669-balanced-audio-technology-vk-3i-line-stage-tube-preamplifier/images/5010012/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650126080-bryston-bp-25-stereo-preamplifier/

I ended up getting an AI Modulus 2c, after hearing Holmz talk about his. But with tubes and repair, it’s going to cost around 800. 
 

I don’t really need a remote because I set the volume knobs on the pre to 9 o clock and control the volume with my dac remote control. (32-bit)

Edited September 29 by olds1959special

[ctsooner]

Have you ever tried to see if it sounds better using just the preamp without using the digital volume control?  Curious what you would come up with.  

[olds1959special]

On 9/30/2024 at 4:41 AM, ctsooner said:

Have you ever tried to see if it sounds better using just the preamp without using the digital volume control?  Curious what you would come up with.  

Way too loud, no room to turn the volume knobs.

[Holmz]

Does the topping have a low output voltage mode?
(Other than the volume control)
Like one for RCAs versus XLRs?

the Topoing D30 says 2.1v output.
But I’m not sure if you have that, the D70, or something else…

[olds1959special]

On 9/30/2024 at 4:41 AM, ctsooner said:

Have you ever tried to see if it sounds better using just the preamp without using the digital volume control?  Curious what you would come up with.  

The pre-amp just sounds better with the volume set to at least 9 o'clock. Then I reduce my DAC to around 50-60. This way, I'm not overloading the preamp, which is 80's vintage, and when it was made most sources were not as hot as today. (More like 1V)

Edited October 5 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

On 9/15/2024 at 8:58 AM, Sbank said:

@olds1959special From the other thread it sounds like you're hoping to find something under $1K.  You're right, that's a tough combo of needs at budget because most balanced gear is pricier and more of the more vintage gear is both single-eneded only and/or doesn't have remote. Besides these, I saw a few built 5ch for HT that meet the needs, but can't help but think too much of the cost is based on extra parts vs. better parts and design.  

Here's a couple: 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650129108-primare-pre32-preamplifier/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650128841-simaudio-moon-350p-preamp/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650088669-balanced-audio-technology-vk-3i-line-stage-tube-preamplifier/images/5010012/

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650126080-bryston-bp-25-stereo-preamplifier/

Thanks this post got me started on my search for my first real tube pre amp and I’m glad I found my AI Modulus 2c.

[Sbank]

11 hours ago, olds1959special said:

Thanks this post got me started on my search for my first real tube pre amp and I’m glad I found my AI Modulus 2c.

If I'm following along, you are having it repaired to eliminate some noise. After it's healthy, you should really give it a shot listening with your DAC on fixed 100% output, and totally rely on the 2c to control your volume.  That will take the digital volume control in the DAC out of the equation, resulting in a high probability of getting you closer to the music. The analog volume control in the 2c is one of the main reasons a separate preamp usually sounds preferable. YMMV. Cheers,

Spencer

[olds1959special]

2 hours ago, Sbank said:

If I'm following along, you are having it repaired to eliminate some noise. After it's healthy, you should really give it a shot listening with your DAC on fixed 100% output, and totally rely on the 2c to control your volume.  That will take the digital volume control in the DAC out of the equation, resulting in a high probability of getting you closer to the music. The analog volume control in the 2c is one of the main reasons a separate preamp usually sounds preferable. YMMV. Cheers,

Spencer

It’s been repaired. In my experiments so far, turning the DAC up to the maximum 2.5volts seems to overload the input stage of the Modulus pre-amp (80’s design) and makes everything so loud there is almost no room to turn the volume knob, and it doesn’t sound good this way. Fortunately the DAC has a 32-bit volume control with low noise so unless you go down to below 1volt or 40 on the volume, I don’t perceive quality loss. I usually play between 1-2volts or 40-80 on the volume. This has the added advantage of being controllable by a single remote. I will definitely play around with things but this has been my experience so far with it. 

Edited October 6 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

19 minutes ago, olds1959special said:

It’s been repaired. In my experiments so far, turning the DAC up to the maximum 2.5volts seems to overload the input stage of the Modulus pre-amp (80’s design) and makes everything so loud there is almost no room to turn the volume knob, and it doesn’t sound good this way. Fortunately the DAC has a 32-bit volume control with low noise so unless you go down to below 1volt or 40 on the volume, I don’t perceive quality loss. I usually play between 1-2volts or 40-80 on the volume. This has the added advantage of being controllable by a single remote. I will definitely play around with things but this has been my experience so far with it. 

Or the amps have too much gain.
<I forget…>. Do those Fozi amps have a hi/lo selector?

[olds1959special]

4 minutes ago, Holmz said:

Or the amps have too much gain.
<I forget…>. Do those Fozi amps have a hi/lo selector?

It’s my four Kenwood L-05M’s. I’m thinking of trying H attenuators on the DAC.

Edited October 6 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

Ordered these to try.

[Holmz]

^Good idea.^

The XLR amps (I think) generally have ~20dB of gain, and RCA amp generally ~26dB of gain.
12dB should be a good starting place, and get the volume knob further to the right.

That said, when listening low, I am usually at ~9 o’clock, and loud at noon to 2 o’clock.

[olds1959special]

41 minutes ago, Holmz said:

^Good idea.^

The XLR amps (I think) generally have ~20dB of gain, and RCA amp generally ~26dB of gain.
12dB should be a good starting place, and get the volume knob further to the right.

That said, when listening low, I am usually at ~9 o’clock, and loud at noon to 2 o’clock.

Would the attenuator or a passive volume control be better?

[olds1959special]

Also gonna try my Qdelix 5k dac which has a 1volt and 2volt setting.

[olds1959special]

Hmm, when I play my DAC at full output I have to turn the preamp down to  2 notches up from the bottom. Do you think that's open enough? I'm not sure I'm hearing distortion this way.

[olds1959special]

The Modulus 3 pre-amp states Maximum Input: 9v rms for high level section. Although I have the earlier Modulus 2, it makes me think I shouldn't worry about this if I'm not hearing distortion.