What's the science behind short speaker wires versus short interconnects?

[DC-93]

In my listening room I can have either 25' of speaker wires or a 25' interconnect between my pre out and amp in.

I've always had 25' of speaker wires.   

Should I try a 25' long interconnect and move my amp between my Sig II speakers?

 

 

[GdnrBob]

1 hour ago, DC-93 said:

Should I try a 25' long interconnect and move my amp between my Sig II speakers?

In my opinion, yes.

Longer speaker cables will have more influence in 'coloring' the sound the speaker produces, as compared with longer interconnects. Hence, the use of monoblocks by some. And, long interconnects are less expensive than high quality speaker cables (usually).

Bob

[BFW]

Definitely try long interconnects, I think you will be very surprised at the improvement vs long speaker cables.

[Richard Vandersteen]

The science is simple.  Speaker wires are working in a low impedance high current so the less resistance the better (better control of woofers).  Interconnects are in a high impedance low current situation so as long as they are reasonably low in capacitance 25 feet has little impact on the sound.  RV

[stratocaster]

2 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

The science is simple.  Speaker wires are working in a low impedance high current so the less resistance the better (better control of woofers).  Interconnects are in a high impedance low current situation so as long as they are reasonably low in capacitance 25 feet has little impact on the sound.  RV

Thanks Richard. This is by far the best  explanation I have ever read that demystifies the question of long interconnects vs speaker wires…

[Holmz]

12 hours ago, DC-93 said:

In my listening room I can have either 25' of speaker wires or a 25' interconnect between my pre out and amp in.

I've always had 25' of speaker wires.   

Should I try a 25' long interconnect and move my amp between my Sig II speakers?

In addition to the resistance, the capacitance and inductance of a speaker cable are also non zero, and generally as one of them gets pushed down with geometry changes, then the other rears up,.. and it is all high current for speaker cable
Taken to the extreme one goes for monoblock amps.

The long IC has almost zero current,

Once the ICs get long, then over time, they went to XLRs and balanced cables which can go more like hundreds of meters of kilometers.

I use the StarQuad Mogami IC wire and the Neutrik RCAs of XLRs for a DIY IC.
I’d be really surprised if a DIY 25’ long IC and a short lamp cord for the amp to the speaker did not sound better than a really expensive 25’ long speaker cable.
You could literally try it for hundred buck or two… Like a BlueJens IC and some home depot crap for the speaker cable.

Even with a stereo amp between the speakers, it is usually better to have the rack out to the side and use long ICs to amp… any marginal loss of the long IC is less than rack’s diffraction/etc between the speakers. 

Edited September 20, 2024 by Holmz

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

In addition to the resistance, the capacitance and inductance of a speaker cable are also non zero, and generally as one of them gets pushed down with geometry changes, then the other rears up,.. and it is all high current for speaker cable
Taken to the extreme one goes for monoblock amps.

The long IC has almost zero current,

Once the ICs get long, then over time, they went to XLRs and balanced cables which can go more like hundreds of meters of kilometers.

I use the StarQuad Mogami IC wire and the Neutrik RCAs of XLRs for a DIY IC.
I’d be really surprised if a DIY 25’ long IC and a short lamp cord for the amp to the speaker did not sound better than a really expensive 25’ long speaker cable.
You could literally try it for hundred buck or two… Like a BlueJens IC and some home depot crap for the speaker cable.

Even with a stereo amp between the speakers, it is usually better to have the rack out to the side and use long ICs to amp… any marginal loss of the long IC is less than rack’s diffraction/etc between the speakers. 

I have done the experiment 40 years ago, it's not even close.  Short lamp cord with long IC sounds like a major component upgrade.  RV

[DC-93]

 

 I’ll make up a set of biwire speaker wires using 12 gauge lamp cord. Put my amp between the speakers.
I found a 25’ interconnect.  
I’ll report back with results. 
Thanks!

[DC-93]

What's the best way to hook up the speaker wires to the amp?

Currently using banana plugs.  

 

[GdnrBob]

I think Mr. V. says nay to bananas and advocates using spades due to increased surface contact.

And, after the lamp cord, I would try some AQ Rocket 88 or GO4, which is available used at a low cost. Once you hear the difference, the William Tell will make you a true believer.

It did to me.

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

Ring lugs would be my first choice (maximum surface area and gas tight) and is what we use on the M5-HPA and M7-HPA output cables.  Spades would be my second choice.  RV

[Holmz]

15 hours ago, DC-93 said:

What's the best way to hook up the speaker wires to the amp?

Currently using banana plugs.  

 

Which amp is ^that^?

[DC-93]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

Which amp is ^that^?

Parasound HCA 1000A. 
 

I have owned it since new in 1997. Stereophile tested it with impeccable results!  
Competed with amps costing thousands more.  
 

[Holmz]

I like the bridge switch…

[DC-93]

10 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Ring lugs would be my first choice (maximum surface area and gas tight) and is what we use on the M5-HPA and M7-HPA output cables.  Spades would be my second choice.  RV

Unfortunately the nuts don’t come off. Looks like spades for me. 

[Holmz]

You don’t have of two of them…

[TomicTime]

Just a word of caution, many bridged amplifiers sound worse….ymmv of course…..

[DC-93]

Yes, I've heard many do. 

The HCA-1000A bench tested at 160 wpc into 8 ohms and 255 wpc into 4 ohms.  Why bridge with that amount of available power? 

I normally use 1-2 watts at a normal listening level in my room. Usually under a watt! (2Ce Signature II speakers, 16' x 12' x 8' ceiling)

But, like a hemi, it's good to have that reserve to reproduce those difficult notes without clipping!

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, DC-93 said:

Why bridge with that amount of available power? 

Well… getting back to the idea of being able to use shortest speaker cable… In the extreme this happens as we go from a stereo amp to the mono block amps. 😎
If there was an extra Parasound bopping around, then it seems like a logical chin scratcher.

[DC-93]

RV - Looking at this 25' of cable with RCA ends.   Specs look ok to you?    (on ebay)

Canare L-4E6S Microphone and Audio Line Cable is the PREMIER Star Quad cable for all hand held microphone applications. Flexible, satin smooth to the touch, and extra strong, this standard diameter 21 AWG cable fits perfectly in all XLR-type audio connectors. 40 separate strands in each conductor eliminate breakage due to flexing. Star Quad configuration eliminates handling noise and rejects EMI and RFI. Perfect for all Microphone, Audio Rack Wiring, PA System and Audio Patch Cord use in portable applications.

• Conductor: 21 AWG, 40 strand (x4) Copper conductors for flexibility and expanded frequency response.
• Special cross-linked PE insulation
• Flexible in extreme cold weather.
• Shield: >95% Copper High-density TAC Braid.
• Conductor DC Resistance: <29.9 ohms/1000 ft.
• Shield DC Resistance: <9.1 ohms/1000 ft.
• Nominal Capacitance: 46.0 pF/ft
• Nominal Impedance: 44-ohm.

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

9 hours ago, DC-93 said:

RV - Looking at this 25' of cable with RCA ends.   Specs look ok to you?    (on ebay)

Canare L-4E6S Microphone and Audio Line Cable is the PREMIER Star Quad cable for all hand held microphone applications. Flexible, satin smooth to the touch, and extra strong, this standard diameter 21 AWG cable fits perfectly in all XLR-type audio connectors. 40 separate strands in each conductor eliminate breakage due to flexing. Star Quad configuration eliminates handling noise and rejects EMI and RFI. Perfect for all Microphone, Audio Rack Wiring, PA System and Audio Patch Cord use in portable applications.

• Conductor: 21 AWG, 40 strand (x4) Copper conductors for flexibility and expanded frequency response.
• Special cross-linked PE insulation
• Flexible in extreme cold weather.
• Shield: >95% Copper High-density TAC Braid.
• Conductor DC Resistance: <29.9 ohms/1000 ft.
• Shield DC Resistance: <9.1 ohms/1000 ft.
• Nominal Capacitance: 46.0 pF/ft
• Nominal Impedance: 44-ohm.

 

I have not listened to this cable but find that the best sounding IC and Speaker are not stranded.  Speaker wires may have multiple insolated 20 ga strands.  RV

[DC-93]

5 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

I have not listened to this cable but find that the best sounding IC and Speaker are not stranded.  Speaker wires may have multiple insolated 20 ga strands.  RV

You have answered my question about this particular cable.

Do I need to be concerned about capacitance in a 25' IC?  What would excessive capacitance do to the sound?

Thank you.

Edited September 23, 2024 by DC-93
added a question

[olds1959special]

If going 25’ balanced would be best.

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, DC-93 said:

You have answered my question about this particular cable.

Do I need to be concerned about capacitance in a 25' IC?  What would excessive capacitance do to the sound?

In theory it could roll of the high notes off a touch, but that would take a really low input impedance on your amp, and really high output impedance on your preamp.

 

14 hours ago, DC-93 said:

RV - Looking at this 25' of cable with RCA ends.   Specs look ok to you?    (on ebay)

Canare L-4E6S Microphone and Audio Line Cable is the PREMIER Star Quad cable for all hand held microphone applications. Flexible, satin smooth to the touch, and extra strong, this standard diameter 21 AWG cable fits perfectly in all XLR-type audio connectors. 40 separate strands in each conductor eliminate breakage due to flexing. Star Quad configuration eliminates handling noise and rejects EMI and RFI. Perfect for all Microphone, Audio Rack Wiring, PA System and Audio Patch Cord use in portable applications.

• Conductor: 21 AWG, 40 strand (x4) Copper conductors for flexibility and expanded frequency response.
• Special cross-linked PE insulation
• Flexible in extreme cold weather.
• Shield: >95% Copper High-density TAC Braid.
• Conductor DC Resistance: <29.9 ohms/1000 ft.
• Shield DC Resistance: <9.1 ohms/1000 ft.
• Nominal Capacitance: 46.0 pF/ft
• Nominal Impedance: 44-ohm.

 

To be complete, if you have the inductance and capacitance for you speaker cables, we might find that their values could be a lot higher.
And inductance in a speaker cable may be more of a concern than the capacitance…? (Dunno)

That Canare is effectively the same as the star-quad that Mogami sells (W2534).

Personally I would not worry about it at all.
I usually DIY it, but BlueJeans and others do custom lengths, if you really wanted 24’ 2:” or some other odd length, or Goldilocks length.

Whatever tiny effect you lose with the 25’ of the IC is going to be gained 10 fold with the shorter speaker cable.
And I suspect that the most expensive 25’ speaker cable in the world, would not sound as good as a shorter home Depot lamp cord and the 25’ IC from eBay.

Maybe some other expensive IC, and some other expensive short speaker cable can do better… but you will likely see that it is night and day compared with what you have now.

But it is also possible that I have just been lucky.

[olds1959special]

Isn’t there some sort of active device that converts single ended to balanced XLR and then back again?

 

 

Edited September 24, 2024 by olds1959special