Can it be done [Ear/headphones phase and time correct]

[BKDad]

Just a thought...

Most analog recordings and the resulting vinyl discs were the product of using analog processing and recording techniques.  Usually that meant the use of tape decks with their well known sonic characteristics.  From what I've read from people well educated in the field, the kinds of distortions found in analog processing, including the tape decks, are, shall we say, sympathetic to and aligned with how our own aural processing systems work.

In contrast, digital processing has its own imperfections.  These aren't as aligned with our aural systems.  For better and/or worse.

In addition, the engineering and recording techniques used back before digital took over were often quite different from those used now.  The great dynamic range wars come to mind as an example of this.

You can immediately tell how things have changed when you listen to digital versions of early albums compared to the new re-mixes of today.  I have a somewhat hard to find digital recording set of Thick as A Brick from Jethro Tull.  Included in the release was what they called the original "flat" version.  This was just the original analog master tape digitized at 96/24.  There's also a recently re-mixed version.  At least to me, the original is soooo much better than the new remix.  Maybe it's because I've listened to the album since it first came out and am familiar and comfortable with it.  Or, it could be that there's less good musical information in the new version.  You tell me.  And, that's just one example.

So, my opinion is that digital has the potential to sound as good as analog.  The problem is that a lot of the digital recordings aren't very good.  If you want better archival material, I think vinyl is the best way to go.  Master tapes with great machines are certainly better, but that's a whole other dimension.  Most vinyl albums made before the digital age were careful efforts to get the sound just right.  Many albums made since then have been seasoned to taste through Pro Tools editing to sound attractive through first boom boxes, then mp3 players, and now phones.  That may not be what we want to listen to.

Try making your own purist recordings of pretty much anything.  You can often make more realistic recordings than what you find commercially available today.  That's just the nature of the way the music business has gone.  They're in it to make money from the current audience and work to that end.  

In addition, I think there's kind of a threshold of system quality you need to get over before you have a chance to hear good quality digital sound.  That's because the defects of digital and the various systemic digitally generated noise get in the way until you deal with them.    I don't mean the olde audiophile insult of "Your system isn't resolving enough to hear this!  Until you spend twice as much on your audio system as you did on your house, you're just a moronic piker with no opinion worth considering!  I blow my nose in your general direction!"  Instead, I mean all the painful steps you need to go through to address the problems, regardless of cost.  With analog, that's not the case.  It already starts off pretty good, and then can be made better as you improve and adjust your gear properly.

But, that's just me.  Another unknown guy on the internet whose opinion is worth what you paid for it.

[Richard Vandersteen]

BKDad, good post but I think it is about timing.  Most analog errors are amplitude issues which we humans are not very sensitive to.  The digital chain involves many filters many which are high order with timing errors we humans are very sensitive to.  Analog is a very simple energy conversion but digital involves many transfers of energy which by the laws of nature have losses.  I think it will be a long time before the emotional aspect is equivalent (some call this goosebumps) as it is in the photography world.  Spoke with a famous photographer (Vandersteen Owner) about his prints and he told me they are all made from 5 X  7 film because "They touch your soul" even though digital has more detail.  Time will tell, let the music play.

RV 

[BKDad]

Richard,

I think those are good points that I probably haven't really weighted properly.  Certainly, when given the selection some people prefer one digital filter characteristic over another.  Others don't care or can't tell the difference.

Part of the problem is that the digital "standard" really wasn't framed by what might be best for audio quality.  Instead, it had to do with some existing technology that got the product to market faster.  I have to wonder what would have happened if all digital recordings were made at a native sample rate of way above 300 KHz.  Then "real" R2R or other similar type digital to analog converters could be used followed by a simple analog first order reconstruction filter.  But, that technology wasn't available in mass production back in the 80's, either.  So, digital filters were used because they were cheaper and easier to implement than similar really steep analog filters that were thought to be needed for image rejection.  From a sonic perspective, that was all wrong-headed.  Now, we have to live with the consequences.  Much of the past three plus decades has been devoted to rationalizing why that is all good enough, rather than fixing the problem.

My own observation is that digital becomes much, much better when the various noise sources are isolated and reduced.  I don't mean hiss - I mean various high frequency signals that are often common mode currents referenced to the AC mains.  But, it's still not the same as analog, to be sure.

The photography analogy is an interesting one.  I think a lot of the filters in a digital camera system may also be very high order.  That could one of the reasons that black and white digital photography is often more engaging than color is.  I think color digital photography uses some filter trickery to generate the colors.  A camera like a Leica Q2 Monochrom doesn't have those filters.  It shows.  

But, people have their unique preferences.  Part of the human condition...

[Drew769]

On a related note to the original post (which really had little to do with analog vs digital), I noticed that Apple Music is now streaming at high res and with some Atmos content available, and at no additional cost.  I have zero interest in redesigning my system or setting up a second Atmos system, but I was thinking that if they could build that into a headphone or other “wearable” design, it could be pretty cool. Nothing would shock me.

 I’m with RV on the experience vs real live music, though - binaural sound is so different than speakers in a proper 2 channel setup.  So much so that I greatly prefer late night listening at low levels versus listening through my Sennheisers at higher volumes.

[nrenter]

I am so bored of the Analog vs. Digital debate. Just like everything else in engineering, there are trade-offs. There are also good implementations and poor implementations. Also, are we only talking about final media format? Brothers in Arms sounds amazing on vinyl, but was a full digital recording.
 

I could argue how either are theoretically superior, and also design tests to “prove” either are “worse”. I can tell you which I prefer (on a given track of a given release / pressing). I’m spinning a silver disk right now, and you’d be hard pressed to convince me it doesn’t sound great. I’ve also commissioned a custom aluminum / lead / Delrin platter for my turntable as I appreciate the format’s greatness - I don’t take sides in this fight. 
 

I think if we, as a community, would give up this ghost, stop using terms such as “neutral” and “transparent”, and realize the collective fixation with “Aja” simply alienates the next gen of audiophiles (hell, I’m 49 and tired of hearing about it), we’d advance the conversations in a much more productive manner. 
 

Just my opinion. YMMV. 

[BKDad]

14 minutes ago, nrenter said:

I am so bored of the Analog vs. Digital debate. Just like everything else in engineering, there are trade-offs. There are also good implementations and poor implementations. Also, are we only talking about final media format? Brothers in Arms sounds amazing on vinyl, but was a full digital recording.

Just my opinion. YMMV. 

OK.  I can understand that.

I just am interested in improving the quality of what I can listen to.  For me, that requires some level of understanding what the pluses and minuses for each approach may be.  That way I can either improve what's improvable or make good use of already existing advantages.  Believe me, I am completely aware of all the various engineering considerations and the underlying physics.

Some people like to debate and argue.  My own approach is to listen to everybody, separate what I've already discovered to be spurious (at least for the people in my household), and consider the rest.  I've learned that often people have pretty good observations, even if their explanations don't make sense.

Personally, I am not the kind of guy who just keeps buying gear and mixing and matching.  For example, we used 2Ci's here for about a quarter of century(!) until I was sure that I'd gotten the most performance out of them that I could.  Then I upgraded.  My own approach is to build my own gear as much as makes sense.  (No loudspeakers!!)  Other people frequent audio salons and otherwise compare various products.  

But... However people want to enjoy this hobby is up to them.  Everybody has their own ideas, and I'm good with that.  If they want to fixate on Aja, fine for them.  I don't think I even own a copy of the album.  Haven't listened to Brothers in Arms for more than a decade, either.

[Holmz]

I am no expert in headphones, but headphones seem a bit easier, at least conceptually…

Do any headphones have multiple drivers and cross overs in them?
And then for the electrostatic onesn,like the old STAX, they have almost zero movement. So any non-linearity is just about non existent when the movement is almost zero.

There is a fello win Lithuania, or Latvia (I think), that does DSP correction of a handful of headphones to make them impulse response correct,
(Similar to Dirac live, which is basically phase and group delay EQ’ed)

And room modes, etc all drop away with headphones.

Do headphone have breakup modes like larger piston drivers?

I usually use Etymotics earphones, because the times I use a headphone is usually in severely SNR challenged environments, so getting the N part lower is easier than increasing the S part into the 100+ dB range.

In fact I use the earphones without the iPhone even plugged in, when I am mowing a lawn. Then I just think of a song and left brain it in my head, getting the lawnmower dim rediuced to improve the SNR. 😉

[ctsooner]

Phones are nothing like home audio.  I own some very nice pairs of them. Zach at ZMF makes some great can's and most are very affordable as can's go.  I normally use in ear monitors (IEM"s) from Empire Ears.  I currently use their Odin model with an AK DAP (digital audio player).  I am get to travel a bit to see family and use this set up often.  Rewarding as it's music, but I will say that all headphones are purposely tipped up in the highs and or lows and or mids......  They are not trying to do what Richard and hopefully other speaker manufacture's are trying to do which is recreate a concert experience.  

I strongly recommend using the Audioquest Cobalt DAC with the Apple camera kit lighting plug in with any of the Empire Ear (or any of the other IEM's on the market).IEM"s or better yet, CIEM's (custom where you use an Audiologist to take an impression and they custom make the IEM so you don't need the buds and they fit perfectly and comfortably.  

If I owned an audio store, I would always ask if someone wanted a nice portable set up for travel or even bedroom listening as it doesn't have to be expensive at all and it's fun.

[Stringreen]

On 5/20/2021 at 7:44 AM, ctsooner said:

If anyone needs CIEM, IEM or can advice let me know. I’m fairly connected there too. Lol. Also DAP,s and cabling. Ha. Sometimes I need music on the go or when traveling. 

I have Grado GR 10Ein ear headphones hooked to a Sony Walkman.    It brings me to the music while walking the dog, etc.   Recommended.   (don't tell Richard I said that)

[ctsooner]

It’s important to have music on the go or when working out. Mine are very high end for those late nights in bed so the wife can sleep or on the road.  

[Richard Vandersteen]

12 hours ago, Stringreen said:

I have Grado GR 10Ein ear headphones hooked to a Sony Walkman.    It brings me to the music while walking the dog, etc.   Recommended.   (don't tell Richard I said that)

Stringreen, I don't care how you entertain yourself while walking the dog, etc.  Me, I don't want the distractions from my thoughts.

RV

[TomicTime]

i enjoy the format debates ( somewhat )  and competition because as engineers and music lovers seek out “ goosebumps” they improve the breed and both must rise to challenge….

 

” I’m just paying my rent every day in the tower of song “…. Leonard Cohen

 

[ctsooner]

4 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Stringreen, I don't care how you entertain yourself while walking the dog, etc.  Me, I don't want the distractions from my thoughts.

RV

I stopped thinking years ago, so I'm all set 😉. HA. HA

[Bill]

Because there is only one driver in headphones I think they are by definition time and phase correct.  When I'm in the office I use my Grado SR325s.  The only issue with them is that they are "open can" and office mates sometimes give me the hairy eyeball if I turn them up too loud.

[Bill]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:07 AM, nrenter said:

I am so bored of the Analog vs. Digital debate. Just like everything else in engineering, there are trade-offs. There are also good implementations and poor implementations. Also, are we only talking about final media format? Brothers in Arms sounds amazing on vinyl, but was a full digital recording.
 

I could argue how either are theoretically superior, and also design tests to “prove” either are “worse”. I can tell you which I prefer (on a given track of a given release / pressing). I’m spinning a silver disk right now, and you’d be hard pressed to convince me it doesn’t sound great. I’ve also commissioned a custom aluminum / lead / Delrin platter for my turntable as I appreciate the format’s greatness - I don’t take sides in this fight. 
 

I think if we, as a community, would give up this ghost, stop using terms such as “neutral” and “transparent”, and realize the collective fixation with “Aja” simply alienates the next gen of audiophiles (hell, I’m 49 and tired of hearing about it), we’d advance the conversations in a much more productive manner. 
 

Just my opinion. YMMV. 

I agree.  I own both formats and I like both formats.  I recently read an article describing all of the errors that were made in the early days of digital.  In summary the big labels used the format change as a big cash grab without paying any attention to the fundamental differences in formats.  Two that really stuck out were 1) careless, sloppy transfers from old analog masters without any remastering efforts.  I had an early Elton John CD that you could literally hear the tape hiss on!  2) It took studios a long time to recalibrate all of their equipment to account for the difference in analog vs digital fidelity which is usually identified as the reason early digital sounded so harsh.   As a result there were a lot of claims about "amazing digital fidelity" that didn't come true.  It all contributed to an unextinguishable coal fire that continues to burn underground to this day.

[Stringreen]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:29 PM, ctsooner said:

I stopped thinking years ago, so I'm all set 😉. HA. HA

I'm just wondering if Richard has a radio in his car

[Richard Vandersteen]

Yes, but I don't know if it still works.

RV

[ctsooner]

On 9/10/2021 at 12:14 PM, Bill said:

Because there is only one driver in headphones I think they are by definition time and phase correct.  When I'm in the office I use my Grado SR325s.  The only issue with them is that they are "open can" and office mates sometimes give me the hairy eyeball if I turn them up too loud.

Bill, my current IEM's have 12 drivers, including an electrostatic and two dynamic sub's.  With cans/IEM's it's just a different type of sound. Some try to build amps that will 'fill in the middle' etc, but it's different.  I"ve been sent most of the amps that have that type of digital transformation of the signal and I usually don't love it.  JMHO though

[Holmz]

On 9/9/2021 at 5:59 AM, ctsooner said:

I stopped thinking years ago, so I'm all set 😉. HA. HA

I have not been in the navy, but we’re sort of in the same boat here. 😉

[ctsooner]

3 hours ago, Holmz said:

I have not been in the navy, but we’re sort of in the same boat here. 😉

Cute, lol.

[GdnrBob]

@ctsooner,

You should have replied:

'I sea'.

B

[ctsooner]

14 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

@ctsooner,

You should have replied:

'I sea'.

B

That's pretty creative.  HA

[Bill]

On 9/11/2021 at 4:53 PM, ctsooner said:

Bill, my current IEM's have 12 drivers, including an electrostatic and two dynamic sub's.  With cans/IEM's it's just a different type of sound. Some try to build amps that will 'fill in the middle' etc, but it's different.  I"ve been sent most of the amps that have that type of digital transformation of the signal and I usually don't love it.  JMHO though

I stand corrected! 😄 I assume those are BA drivers?  its amazing how complicated IEMs can get.

[Bill]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:55 AM, Huang said:

Vandertones is on CD... just sayin😂

Keep it up and we'll send them to you on wax cylinder.  XD

[ctsooner]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:51 PM, Bill said:

I stand corrected! 😄 I assume those are BA drivers?  its amazing how complicated IEMs can get.

Not at all.  They have: 

Technical Specifications

• 11 Proprietary Drivers, Tribrid Design
• 2 Next Generation W9+ Subwoofers - Sub-Bass, Bass
• 5 Proprietary Balanced Armature Drivers - 2 Low-Mid, 2 Mid, 1 Mid-High
• 4 Premium Electrostatic Drivers - 2 High, 2 Super-High
• 7-Way synX Crossover Network
• EIVEC - Empire Intelligent Variable Electrostatic Control Technology
• A.R.C. Resonance Mitigation Technology
• Impedance: 3 Ohms @ 1kHz
• Frequency Response: 5 Hz - 100kHz
• Sensitivity: 108dB @ 1kHz, 1mW
• Bespoke Stormbreaker UPOCC Copper Litz Cable, Quad Conductor Dual Guage Design

Stormbreaker

Empire Ears believes that an extraordinary IEM requires an extraordinary cable. For the first time ever they've collaborated with bespoke cable manufacturer PWAudio and PENTACONN of Japan to forge a cable worthy of Odin. Introducing Stormbreaker, an ultra premium handcrafted cable comprised of a proprietary USA-sourced OCC Copper Litz configured in a quad conductor, dual guage design wrapped in an elegant black carbon jacket. Stormbreaker is standard equipped with a CNC silver Valknut y-split featuring a .78 2-pin connector with a 2.5mm balanced termination.