Burn In and Jenga Blocks

[Holmz]

The VH. Audio Chela is interesting.
(Sort of like Kimber 12TC on steroids.)

The solid core silver ones I found were http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables_speaker-cables.htm

[BKDad]

I've never heard or seen any of Tempo's products, but a number of people speak highly of them.  For whatever that is worth.  Everybody has a different view  vision idea of what sounds right to them.

Personally, I've had very good experiences dealing with Chris VenHaus.  One of my friends really, REALLY likes the caps Chris has custom designed and made that he sells under the V-Cap brand name.  I've been considering trying a set of the V-Cap CuTF for the high pass filter used with our Quatro CTs.

Edited April 24, 2022 by BKDad

[BKDad]

Something I forgot to mention with regard to burn in.

Don't ask me for an explanation of why or how this works, but I find that running the short sweep track from the Cardas/Ayre sweep recordings makes a huge difference in sound quality.  OK, huge is one of those audiophile terms that goes far beyond the logarithmic nature of decibels.  But, for me I'll just say that I've spent way more money on all sorts of hardware that had less effect than this system treatment.  Plus, unlike a lot of "upgrades", this really has a positive effect.  Once a week, at minimum, or before every listening session.   It only takes one minute.  

http://www.cardas.com/music_frequency_sweep_lp.php

https://www.ayre.com/products/accessories/ibe-disc/

This all brings up the philosophical question of whether the music we listen to actually tunes our system, often in a direction we might not like.  I'd love to know what is causing the degradation and what the sweep tracks do to reverse that.  Responsible opinions welcome, as they used to say on TV...

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, BKDad said:

Something I forgot to mention with regard to burn in.

Don't ask me for an explanation of why or how this works, but I find that running the short sweep track from the Cardas/Ayre sweep recordings makes a huge difference in sound quality.  OK, huge is one of those audiophile terms that goes far beyond the logarithmic nature of decibels.  But, for me I'll just say that I've spent way more money on all sorts of hardware that had less effect than this system treatment.  Plus, unlike a lot of "upgrades", this really has a positive effect.  Once a week, at minimum, or before every listening session.   It only takes one minute.  

http://www.cardas.com/music_frequency_sweep_lp.php

https://www.ayre.com/products/accessories/ibe-disc/

This all brings up the philosophical question of whether the music we listen to actually tunes our system, often in a direction we might not like.  I'd love to know what is causing the degradation and what the sweep tracks do to reverse that.  Responsible opinions welcome, as they used to say on TV...

Two points:

1. Whether it works or not, which could possibly be tested by recording the signal at the speaker inputs, and comparing before-n-after.
2. How it works… which could even include some effect upon the speakers themselves and not the electronic bits.

[BKDad]

1.  Gee, why didn't I think of that?  🙃

I suppose something like that might be possible with DeltaWave.  But, then I'd need a 64 bit Windows computer system to run the software.  It might tell that there is a difference and might be a fun experiment.  I'm not sure the software has enough resolution to do that.  I'm not sure it doesn't.

How to quantify that and correlate it to what we perceive sonically is a much bigger and different proposition.  And, that still leaves the why and how questions.   That's probably a nice project for some grad student who is looking to get ridiculed by hundreds of thousand of audio "objectivists."

Personally, I'm happy to just try it and be happy with the results.  Worst case is that I spent money foolishly and it was a waste of time.  I've bought recordings of music in the very same price range that I ended up playing once and holding my nose.  I merely suggested using the sweep tones because it's worked for me.  I don't feel badly offering suggestions that are really easy to try and low in cost.

2.  That is certainly a possibility.  I suppose you could test that idea by seeing if there was an electrical difference at the speaker terminals as you suggest and eliminating or verifying that possibility.  Then make a comparison test using a measurement microphone at the listening position.  

If I find that grad student, I'll request that.

Again, although I'd love to know this information, I'm not sure it's that valuable in a real sense for anybody but a researcher or otherwise curious person.  People used aspirin effectively for a very long time without really understanding how it works.  (I wonder if those hundreds of thousands of objectivists avoid using aspirin when they have a headache.)  At least the sweep tones won't do damage if used reasonably.  The two schools of thought probably would be, "What a crock!  That makes no difference at all." and "Hey!  Pretty good."  If the sweep tones really have no effect, then nothing but time and a few bucks are lost.  People could have bad reactions to using aspirin.

[Holmz]

Once there are two files, then one can difference them to see if there is a difference. 
If they are not different it is pretty interesting.
(But it is also possible that the sweep might tune the listener.)

If they are different, we still don’t know why - nor which is more right than the other.
But that is also interesting.

 

 

17 minutes ago, BKDad said:

…

Personally, I'm happy to just try it and be happy with the results.  Worst case is that I spent money foolishly and it was a waste of time.  I've bought recordings of music in the very same price range that I ended up playing once and holding my nose.  I merely suggested using the sweep tones because it's worked for me.  I don't feel badly offering suggestions that are really easy to try and low in cost.

…

 

If you get it, and it doesn’t work, then send it to me and I’ll give you half.
(We can share the pain 50/50.)

[BKDad]

I should've been more clear that the sweep tones are something I already use myself.  The money was already spent long ago.  Sorry for the misdirection.

The only speculation on my end is why and how it works, not whether I find it to be useful.  YMMV and all that stuff.

I leave the room when the sweep runs.  So, any possible effect on me is entirely psychological.

[Richard Vandersteen]

11 hours ago, BKDad said:

Something I forgot to mention with regard to burn in.

Don't ask me for an explanation of why or how this works, but I find that running the short sweep track from the Cardas/Ayre sweep recordings makes a huge difference in sound quality.  OK, huge is one of those audiophile terms that goes far beyond the logarithmic nature of decibels.  But, for me I'll just say that I've spent way more money on all sorts of hardware that had less effect than this system treatment.  Plus, unlike a lot of "upgrades", this really has a positive effect.  Once a week, at minimum, or before every listening session.   It only takes one minute.  

http://www.cardas.com/music_frequency_sweep_lp.php

https://www.ayre.com/products/accessories/ibe-disc/

This all brings up the philosophical question of whether the music we listen to actually tunes our system, often in a direction we might not like.  I'd love to know what is causing the degradation and what the sweep tracks do to reverse that.  Responsible opinions welcome, as they used to say on TV...

I did a lot of research on this when I was designing the Model 5 speaker (mid 90's) because I noticed my system always toke 10 to 20 min to sound normal.  The result DBS for the crossovers which we still use today in our flagship.  When a system has been off for a while the dielectric materials in the signal path begin to collapse and need to be reformed.  I also noticed that capacitors without bias never get fully formed because the music's waveform at normal listening levels it not high enough.  The original reason for DBS was to keep the speaker crossover where music left the sound last, then when one wanted to play music the next day or week this 20 min warmup wait was eliminated.  I later noticed that DBS improved the sound of capacitors at zero volts beyond what thousands of hours of playing never would accomplish in our highest resolution speakers.  It is expensive, a pain to remember to have them changed in time because when the bias goes away the sound gets dark and slow over time, and they must be soldered because any noise will cause distortion.  Playing any wideband noise or music before listening will improve the sound if the system has been inactive for even a short time.  Do these special discs improve on this phenomenon, it would take a double-blind test to verify because an audiophile's mind can hear what he or she wants too quite easily (I know from years of personal experience).  This is why DIY is so popular because after all that work, money and time its goanna be good (I know this from years of experience also but dealers will cure this in short order)!  RV

[BKDad]

In our case, the only coupling capacitors in the system are the ones use for the high pass function for Quatro CT's.  Those are DC biased, of course.   All the audio cables have DBS, too.  But, there must be caps performing a similar function within the Quatro internal crossover networks. 

In any event, what I've noticed is a degradation over but a few days, even when the system is played for hours over that time.  A short sweep cleans that right up.

Hey - At least I've found something that works for me.  Not complaining at all!

[Steve Edwards]

Hey BK,

I'm interested in these.  I'm also assuming that the LP improves only vinyl playback and the cd only digital?  Also, I didn't see a price or ordering method in the links.

Not to muddy the waters, but I also just observed another conundrum.  We were out of town for three days at a wedding in Paso Robles.  I shut my system down completely.  Yesterday morning, I turned everything back on.  With the exception of my RM-9 amp, I leave all the components on 24/7.  After about 4 hours of chores (the Mrs is still working, so I'm the housekeeper), I sat down for a session.  Feeling a little lazy, I started out with one of my best sounding cd's, which I've heard dozens of times.  Everything about the sound was better, even heard some of those never heard that before details.  I played two more cd's with the same impression.

In my shallow understanding of how all this stuff works, I assumed it was for one of two reasons; that the equipment benefited from a shut down period, or that the space of three days without hearing my system reset my ear / brain relationship.   I'm of the inclination that it was the latter.  What's that old saying, absence makes the heart (or in this case the ears and brain) grow fonder? 

I still may seek out the two products you've mentioned.  Thank you for pointing them out.

Play on

 

[BKDad]

Both products are available from a bunch of dealers, online and otherwise.

[ctsooner]

Just back from hospital after nearly 2 weeks.  Weak and trying to catchup.  I've been told by a few to use that sweep CD you are mentioning.  Is it something I can load onto my server and run before listening sessions?  If so, is there somewhere I can buy it?  If I'm off, please let me know.

Quatro CT

Vandy M5 amp (without built in DBS)

All top DBS AQ cables and cords for every connection.  

Server is based on Windows 64 

Is this enough info?  Thanks, still very much out of it, but wanting to go upstairs as soon as I'm capable to listen.  Portable IEMs and a DAP have been a life saver.  3 folks from my medical team have now purchased the same IEM's and DAP that I'm using, lol.  Kind of funny, but when folks here better sound, they may really want to keep listening to better sound.

Thanks for this thread and your thoughts guys.  

[BKDad]

23 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Thanks for this thread and your thoughts guys.  

Hope you're feeling better.

The CD is available from a bunch of sources.  I bet whoever your favorite online purveyor of CDs has it.  I bet Ayre dealers do, too.

I ripped the CD and have it loaded on the hard drive of my digital server.

[ctsooner]

Thanks so much BK.  appreciate it.  I assumed I could just do an upload.  I'll ask Johnny to ship one. thanks.  

[BKDad]

It's a CD with sound tracks on it.  Treat it exactly as you would any other CD.  Same for the vinyl version.

[ctsooner]

I just texted with Ayre and they have the CD (first track) as you said, but are going to try and do a download that we can purchase as that's easier for me to get into the server.  

[BKDad]

Your fancy server won't allow you to rip CD's?  No disk drive?

[ctsooner]

53 minutes ago, BKDad said:

Your fancy server won't allow you to rip CD's?  No disk drive?

I wish it was fancy.  lol. Their new one will be a nice looking machine. I just texted them and it's built into the front cover. I can't believe I never noticed, lol.  I'd still rather just do the download once Ariel gets it on their site, lol.  Even they don't know why, but that it does....work. I thought that was funny. 

[BKDad]

George Cardas actually was selling the vinyl version long before Charley got permission to make a digital one.  Stan Ricker did the mastering.  I have no idea whose idea it was.

[ctsooner]

Cool. is the Cardas the same CD menu as what Ayre is selling?  They have a full CD with the first track being the sweep waves you guys are discussing.  Charley mentioned this to me years ago and I'm shocked that I never tried it.  Heck, my dealer just came over one day and started to mark my CD edges with a green marker (yea, you know your age now, ha).  I always tried anything to see if I liked it or not.  Even my Quicksilver pre and amps were rewired with MIT internal silver wire and their premium caps.  Sounded closer to the Jadis I pined for and couldn't afford than the Quicksilver.  I think it's funny that the guys at Ayre don't even know 'why', but that it 'does'....

Fascinating topic we have going here.  I wonder how many Vandy owners use this, if they know about it?  I only say that, because Vandy owners for the most part listen to THEIR ears and not other's like reviewers or posters to make up their mind.  It's one reason I love this forum.  

[BKDad]

The Cardas link I posted above shows what is on the LP.   This one shows what is on the Ayre CD:

https://www.musicdirect.com/accessories/cardas-ayre-acoustics-irrational-but-efficacious-ibe-burn-in-cd

[Stringreen]

Ayre disc ....si.       raising cables ....non.     Tried a few times with the same results

[BKDad]

30 minutes ago, Stringreen said:

Ayre disc ....si.       raising cables ....non.     Tried a few times with the same results

As they always say on the Interweb thingy - YMMV.  

[GdnrBob]

3 hours ago, Stringreen said:

  raising cables ....non.

I wish I had the luxury of being able to route my cables optimally, but I never thought they would become so unwieldy/thick/heavy. It is a miracle I can still plug everything in.

Thank God Amazon has right angle adaptors.

B

[ctsooner]

Furetech offers a sort of holder for these heavy power cords.  A support of sorts.  I bet a company could make an after market device of plastic or metal plate that has bump outs to support the plugs.