Model Seven XTRM

[andrewtgt]

You're spot on TomicTime, adding multiple powerful subs would overpressurize a small room. One needs a big room with a high ceiling,  along with adequate bass traps, in order to extract the bass quality that full range speakers are capable of. 

[GdnrBob]

@andrewtgt,

I might be wrong, but I don't think you would 'over pressurize a small room' with multiple Vandy subs. When properly set up, they would at most neutralize room nodes-which would be a good thing.

B

[TomicTime]

in my room, with minimal EQ i am down 2-3 db at 20 hz…. with model 7 mk 2

[Jim Heckman]

Jim (TomicTime),

Your comments about the 9 and the swarm effect of the additional bass source, and the additional boxes taking the load off the main sub in the speaker make me wonder about the efficacy of the XTRM upgrade in these areas, which according to that reasoning should do neither.  No doubt Richard has addressed these considerations in the XTRM design.   That being said, even with the absolute respect any knowledgeable person must have for Richard's design and product development decisions, it does seem as if the XTRM addresses an issue already at least to some extent addressed by the sub 9s (necessarily acknowledging that to Richard's immense credit he has always cared about value for his customers).  Again, to me the main virtue of the XTRM is to eliminate the need to add two large boxes to the listening room.  Why not go straight to putting the XTRM technologies into the sub 9s?  Or maybe, practically speaking, the XTRM upgrade will reduce the need and appeal of the 9s.

This obviously is idle speculation on the one hand, but reasonable questions on the other.  Perhaps Richard has already answered them by his assertion that the sub 9s and the XTRM together make for SQ that exceeds what either alone can do.  But for financial efficacy for the buyer, was it not a more appealing idea to approach this level of SQ with a single product?  For someone like me to buy the subs, then learn about another seemingly related upgrade that conceivably duplicates at least to some extent what my money's buying with the subs, is a little disappointing.  It looks like competing products.

For me, adding the sub 9s on top of my 300wpc Aesthetix Atlas monoblocks will have me swimming in power (the high end of recommended power range for the Sevens is 300wpc).   It sort of seems that my main amps, with the aid of two other amps carrying the heavy bass frequencies, then will carry only the mid and high frequencies, meaning they should be doing the gay tarantella.

And as an aside, I must comment that I didn't hear a big or even significant SQ improvement in adding the Bedrocks under my Sevens.   Sometimes I think we audiophiles (maybe just me) need to rein in our expectations of upgrades which can be unrealistic.  That being said, my expectations of adding the sub 9s to my system are definitely not reined in...

Jim

[Richard Vandersteen]

Hi Jim, I am surprised you did not hear a significant improvement with the addition of the Bedrock.  Everyone has  reported better imaging and transparency.  I do believe there are some issues with expectations because if you hypothetically could unwind them one at a time the end result would be the sound of a transistor radio of old!  Once we get our systems to this level significant improvements are very hard to come by and they take time.  Adding the SUB NINE will improve any system because of its quality, lower distortion, room EQ and multiple sub effect.  Counter Force arrangement for the SUB NINE would only increase cost and size with  very little improvement in sound because the mid-range and tweeter are not in the same cabinet as in the SEVEN/ XTRM.   These are not competing products but like anything in our hobby some of the improvements do compliment each other.  It is not about power as even a 1000 watt amplifier that you can weld with will sound better if its load is lightened.  I hope this enlightens and it is rewarding to know that even with a 43 year history my customers/supporters still hold my feet to the fire.  It's been said by someone that facts are facts but the glass will be "half empty or half full", its all about attitude.

RV

[TomicTime]

Hi Jim and others following this thread - well in the end, we are playing around with the ear/brain…both not all that well understand. Expectations are a fascinating landscape.  The competitive environment also plays a part. I see Vandy operating in what i call an orbit of excellence. My view drawn from visiting many but not all the upper tier Vandy dealers in USA, watching shows and show reports, including Munich. Vandersteen runs in my opinion an elite but sonic value crowd heavy on real engineering skill. Basis, Brinkmann, ARC, Aesthetix, Lyra, Triplaner, HRS, Audioquest. All these inventors / firms scrapping for incremental and sometimes breakthru improvements and also probably  frank  with each other when something disappoints. 

The way i am viewing the Extreme is that it is about bass but also about a slight reduction in vibrational cabinet coloration. For me in my current room, musical tastes and average pretty low SPL ( my wife would not agree ), i don’t feel the need to address bass. I might ponder an improvement in midrange clarity, but that’s imo already a 7 strength. I also have to ask myself, where can i put $22 k in my system to yield a better improvement, and i know the answer is a Brinkmann table, HRS base and the best Lyra i can squeeze out of the money.

Expectations….i know i oversell, but then have a fatigue free ten hour marathon listening session… with digital no less….

My Ayre VXR-Tweny power amp, no slouch…..so the differences between it and M7 were somewhat subtle….going backwards, not so much. Improvement cannot be unheard.

You, we are in a neat place. I wouldn’t trade where i am for $750 k Wilsons. 

I do really want a set of Kento for the condo, but it’s more about the pure like water balsa / CF magic midrange..

first world problems, i know…

 

[TomicTime]

for clarity a cabinet to midrange coloration caused by the push pull driver. These are the micro level improvements we are now fighting for, gnats A type stuff..but if you get 3-6 of them they really add up and transform…

[Jim Heckman]

Thank you, Richard for answering many questions.  Re me and the Bedrocks, it may well be me, not the Bedrocks.  Also, I agree with your saying once we get to this level, improvements are very hard to come by.  Jim (TomicTime), I appreciate your characterization of elite but sonic value companies, Vandersteen obviously being prominent among them and in my experience also including Aesthetix and Audioquest.  These are companies that are not in it for the money but rather for offering the world as accessibly as possible the best recorded music experience.   The word I've consistently applied to them is "integrity".

Jim

[TomicTime]

Integrity - so very right 😉

[GdnrBob]

When you love what you do, integrity follows.

Bob

[ctsooner]

Integrity is the best word to describe these special audio companies.  I will however say that they have to be in it for the money or they wouldn't be able to live and to give us fun products to enjoy for years, Ha.

When I heard the Sub 9 system in Fort Collins, I was blown away by the gains in the mids and highs as much as the subs. Incremental for sure, but upgrade non the less.  Buy adding the subs to the XTRM is probably as good as it gets right now.  I've heard many of the 150k plus speakers out there and non give me goosebumps that the mk2 plus subs gave me.  It was all analog too for those who wondered.