New Home/New Listening Room

[500Homeruns]

Richard,

Thank you very much for replying!

I believe I received some very good advice in this thread on future placement of my Treo CT’s in the planned listening room. I know it’s not 100% possible to know the exact best locations until everything is moved in and set up, but if you could confirm using the short wall for the speakers, I would appreciate your advice.

[Richard Vandersteen]

9 hours ago, bkeske said:

I’ve heard mixed opinions of green glue. It remains playable, so yes, it is good for damping and limiting the transmission of sound from one room (or space) to another. Soundproofing  is it’s primary purpose, but that isn’t always  a concern *within* a ‘stand alone’ audio room itself. I’ve heard some room audio technicians/consultants feel it can be actually bad for a rooms acoustics,  primarily mids and voices. Over dampened? I believe there can be a difference between ‘sound transmission control’ and creating a room for ‘best’ acoustics within it. I think these two strategies and solutions can get intertwined when maybe they shouldn’t.  The common issue is the control  of vibration from sound waves.

I haven’t personally come to any conclusions on when or where the best use of a product like green glue should be used. But, my gut feeling is a layer of 5/8” vs 1/2” drywall may be sufficient in many cases simply as it would provide additional stiffness to the structure itself (although if you look at various UL acoustical testing reports and rated designs, there is not a lot of difference between the two in that respect). Perhaps drywall installed on resilient channels is a good option, but only if the installer knows what they are doing (which will be rare in residential drywall work, as it is more a commercial application), as a poorly installed resilient system can be worse than installing without.

This really depends on how serious you want to get with the ‘acoustics’ of the basic construction elements themselves. You could go down a deep rabbit hole here, and some solutions may be better dealt with with acoustical treatments after the room is finished, as necessary, in a less costly way. But, If you want to get more serious about this now, before the structure is built, I would find a local acoustic consultant in your area that could provide you with various options based on what you want to achieve within your budget, and then work directly with your builder on incorporating those options into the rooms construction from rough to finish. Obviously it would be nice to have finish space that works acoustically without the need for various panels tacked around your room (as example).

That said, yes, HVAC, electrical, and finish issues, problems, and solutions to help create good acoustics within a room can be very important. Both Jim and  Jon have brought up valid ideas and concerns for consideration. As example, mini splits are great, I’ve used them for a variety of reasons, and sometimes they are the best choice to solve a particular problem, but keep in mind, you *can* spend almost as much on that equipment as a single furnace and AC unit for your entire home (not a home with two furnaces).

 

Don't believe those who say the wall will be over damped.  The room is to have some reverberation (because of its dimensions) but not because of the walls!  Remember some believe the cabinet of a speaker should speak, which is one I could never figure out as the speaker is a transducer not an instrument.  Double 1/2-inch sheetrock with Green Glue is an affordable solution because it is damped, has mass and can easily be finished with some high frequency diffusion.  For sound do not use any springs (resilient channels) if sound proofing is not required.  RV

[Richard Vandersteen]

5 minutes ago, 500Homeruns said:

Richard,

Thank you very much for replying!

I believe I received some very good advice in this thread on future placement of my Treo CT’s in the planned listening room. I know it’s not 100% possible to know the exact best locations until everything is moved in and set up, but if you could confirm using the short wall for the speakers, I would appreciate your advice.

It is not that difficult to set up a simple system (this is a time when digital is good enough) and try both because every room is a new ball game.

RV

[bkeske]

45 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Don't believe those who say the wall will be over damped.  The room is to have some reverberation (because of its dimensions) but not because of the walls!  Remember some believe the cabinet of a speaker should speak, which is one I could never figure out as the speaker is a transducer not an instrument.  Double 1/2-inch sheetrock with Green Glue is an affordable solution because it is damped, has mass and can easily be finished with some high frequency diffusion.  For sound do not use any springs (resilient channels) if sound proofing is not required.  RV

I'm a bit torn on this Richard, as I have heard arguments both ways (not the resilient channels, in that I agree). Something to look into further as it does interest me....but....in my almost 40 years in architectural design work, I have never once had a client ask for a dedicated audio room. And if and when they do, it's  mostly a dedicated AV 'theater room' request,  and I've usually brought in a consultant or design/build AV company for them to work with.  Quite surprising really, as I've been involved with designing  more than one multi-million dollar home, and I cannot remember one who was a dedicated audiophile.  It would be fun to do so, and interesting, but somewhat surprising it is so rare. I've had clients in those million+ $ homes that have absolutley lousy systems, one had a glorified Sony 'boom box' in his very expensive den. Makes me shake my head at times 😁

Edited January 24, 2022 by bkeske

[Richard Vandersteen]

Remember the golden rule; definition of Specialty is "Few People Care"!  This is true in many segments of society like: food, wine, cameras, cars, furniture, appliances and etc. as for most people it can quickly be "good enough".   I have helped in many sound rooms and refuse to help with dedicated sound rooms because they rarely sound good.  Helped a reviewer who had a very famous consultant do his room which sounded bad.  Once we removed 90% of what he had done we got it to be pretty good and it looked more like a living room with bookcases, record racks, shelves, wall hangings and furniture.  Very comfortable room to visit and listen to music.  Most consultants design HT rooms which are very different, IMO.

RV

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, bkeske said:

I'm a bit torn on this Richard, as I have heard arguments both ways (not the resilient channels, in that I agree). Something to look into further as it does interest me....but....in my almost 40 years in architectural design work, I have never once had a client ask for a dedicated audio room. And if and when they do, it's  mostly a dedicated AV 'theater room' request,  and I've usually brought in a consultant or design/build AV company for them to work with.  Quite surprising really, as I've been involved with designing  more than one multi-million dollar home, and I cannot remember one who was a dedicated audiophile.  It would be fun to do so, and interesting, but somewhat surprising it is so rare. I've had clients in those million+ $ homes that have absolutley lousy systems, one had a glorified Sony 'boom box' in his very expensive den. Makes me shake my head at times 😁

7 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

 

 

I am not a builder, but in my youth my father had a cabin framed in up in Big Bear and we did all the internal work.
(Dry wall was not a lot of fun, and insulation stapling gives one a sore wrist)

Later in a condo we did all the floors. (Ceramic tile and wood parquet)
Later in a house, I redid a bathroom, floors and misc. 

The Mrs also knows I am not a builder. So, much later… when she needed that counselling room, she got a quote for the work.
The quote was one of those, “We really don’t want to do the work” levels of cost.

There are a couple of books on recording studios, like : https://www.amazon.com.au/Recording-Studio-Design-Philip-Newell/dp/0240522400 and I cannot recall the other one I got, but it was also a few hundred $.
I was reluctantly “hired”, and the room was successful.
My only regret was not doing insertion loss “before and after” measurements.

My point here, is that it is so rare of a field that it makes sense to at least have the common knowledge of the science at hand… as when the mistakes are made deep in the structure it gets more costly to fix them post facto.
And most listening rooms are shoved into existing rooms, so almost any attempt at designing a quiet and sound insulated space, is going to be either better, or at least no worse than the average room.

I believe that home theatre rooms usually have an RT60 echo time be low, but a music listening room can be higher,
Or that is it possible to over dampen the room.
(But keeping road noises out, always helps the SNR.)

 

7 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

...  Then get the significant other help diffuse with furnishings.  Worked for me!

RV

There is some wisdom ^here^.
And having the room be inviting and comfortable is IMO better than a padded mental asylum, or Cuban isolation/detainment cell.

(For instance, I would prefer a window to have the option of looking out… or at least a sky light. The double/triple  pane windows make sense from a noise perspective.)

[TomicTime]

Exactly what the forum is about helping each other ! One last word from me….the Long island room has floor boom issues, it’s not a structure problem per say just an acoustics issue…and it’s built over a garage…… 40-80 hz…10 db hump, i got involved after the fact, no vandy speakers or subs w EQ…..but….

[TomicTime]

this room has a very lived in feel and almost perfect recording studio RT60 with the blinds down….no accident….

[TomicTime]

9’ ceilings help…..absorbers hidden behind artwork, knick knacks, records, a dog here and there….

 

[Holmz]

3 hours ago, TomicTime said:

9’ ceilings help…..absorbers hidden behind artwork, knick knacks, records, a dog here and there….

 

I’ll try and find a couple of wombats 🙄

[500Homeruns]

I received word today from the builder that the window in my listening room  has to stay.  Technically it is considered another bedroom and according to code, it needs a window. 

[ctsooner]

Great.  Window coverings it is.  There. are some great sounding honeycomb blinds that are built for acoustics.  You can have a great looking covering and get what you need!   Jim, how do you put treatments behind the pics?  we need to talk.... ha

[bkeske]

18 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Remember the golden rule; definition of Specialty is "Few People Care"!  This is true in many segments of society like: food, wine, cameras, cars, furniture, appliances and etc. as for most people it can quickly be "good enough".   I have helped in many sound rooms and refuse to help with dedicated sound rooms because they rarely sound good.  Helped a reviewer who had a very famous consultant do his room which sounded bad.  Once we removed 90% of what he had done we got it to be pretty good and it looked more like a living room with bookcases, record racks, shelves, wall hangings and furniture.  Very comfortable room to visit and listen to music.  Most consultants design HT rooms which are very different, IMO.

RV

Believe me Richard, I take your recommendations much more serious than most other. It is rare, (specialty home audio spaces), and you have not only had 'your hands' involved in  making speakers sound incredible, (which we all know here), but I'm sure also the spaces they are within.

I do appreciate your involvement in this forum.

[bkeske]

7 hours ago, 500Homeruns said:

I received word today from the builder that the window in my listening room  has to stay.  Technically it is considered another bedroom and according to code, it needs a window. 

I question that. Yes, I run into this situation all the time, and did think about it. But, unless there is some code that states you must have a certain amount of bedrooms in your home, which is doubtful, or unless you have deed restrictions via a Home Owners Association with such rules, You can simply rename that room as a 'Bonus Room' which is habitable, but not a bedroom, so needs no required egress. Or, have them rename it 'Storage'.

[bkeske]

I've done the above before for a variety of reasons. Typically we call a room over a garage a 'Bonus Room', and if it has no windows, or has  windows that are not large enough to meet egress requirements for a bedroom, (yes, the windows have to have 5.7 sq. ft. of clear opening on the second floor), it's fine, and acceptable to your local Building Department. 

But, I do find it my duty to let the clients know, that if in the future they use it as a Bedroom, and it does not meet code for a Bedroom, they could/may be technically liable for a person injured or worse  in that room should a fire occur and they become trapped within it. 

But, chances of that happening are not very likely, but you should understand what the code requires before making those final decisions.

Edited January 25, 2022 by bkeske

[Richard Vandersteen]

Very difficult to make good sound in a room over the garage (Bonus Room) because the floor will bounce at a low frequency.  Short of putting poles for support in between the cars good low bass is next to impossible because it is a large tympanic membrane.  Best would be to limit bass with smaller speakers and have room EQ.

RV 

[bkeske]

It's a 24' span. Unless you use wood floor trusses, or and engineered floor, you cannot span 24' with dimensional 2x lumber, thus, there would be a steel (typically) beam underneath with 2x floor joists to divide the span in half. Folks around here don't like columns in their garage, thus I size steel beams to full span the garage, (with a max 1/4" deflection across its at full loads, which never really happens), to support the floor above. Or, as I stated earlier, they may very well be 'garage storage' trusses, in which case, it would be rigid as well, as there would be vertical structure at the knee wall connecting the roof and floor structure together, and breaking up the span into 1/3's.

A good question to ask the builder, but a solid floor can be achieved. And the strength can be increased if you desire.

In many areas of the country, we have basements, so not unlike most/all our first floor structure spanning 16-20+ feet free spans over a basement. Again, has to be engineered for the required floor loads and spans. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

A steel beam is a spring.  I have better luck sonically with a glue lam as it is damped.  Any way you do this my experience is that it is difficult.

RV

[bkeske]

Richard, both can be springs unless they are designed correctly. LVL's (glue lam) can actually deflect (bend) even more than steel without 'breaking', thus many IMO undersize them as they design to minimums.  Same with floor and roof structural elements.

Bottom line, both will work. 

My clients should be happy as I tend to over-engineer my structure....to the dismay of builders, lumber yards, and suppliers who do't understand why I use such 'over-sized' structure vs what they typically see. I'm proud of that actually 😁I detest deflection.

Edited January 25, 2022 by bkeske

[TomicTime]

9 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Great.  Window coverings it is.  There. are some great sounding honeycomb blinds that are built for acoustics.  You can have a great looking covering and get what you need!   Jim, how do you put treatments behind the pics?  we need to talk.... ha

Pete - Owens Corning 703 1” in the wood picture frame , Heavy craft paper backing, hot glue if needed.

[Holmz]

13 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Great.  Window coverings it is.  There. are some great sounding honeycomb blinds that are built for acoustics.  You can have a great looking covering and get what you need!   Jim, how do you put treatments behind the pics?  we need to talk.... ha

 

Could it be an insert so that the window is visibly there from the outside, but on the inside it is a big damped deal that fit in there flush?
(And maybe could be lifted out for egress…  or for a Romeo and Juliet, or a Rapunzel skit? )

@500HomerunsI am not a BB fan per se, but which team did you play for?

[500Homeruns]

Oh, I’m just a baseball fan. And unfortunately, I am a Philadelphia Phillies fan. Many lean years. 😔

Feel free to call me Steve.

Edited January 26, 2022 by 500Homeruns

[GdnrBob]

12 hours ago, 500Homeruns said:

I am a Philadelphia Phillies fan. Many lean years. 😔

Hey, it could be worse. I root for the Mets.😬

B

[ctsooner]

On 1/25/2022 at 5:25 PM, TomicTime said:

Pete - Owens Corning 703 1” in the wood picture frame , Heavy craft paper backing, hot glue if needed.

So it's a wood frame that uses OC 703 1" with heavy craft paper in the back.  What is the pic of and how does that work with the insulation behind it?  thanks.  

[TomicTime]

Pete; You now order acoustical treatments w photo printed on fabrics. … This has a simple 1”x 1” wood frame, easy to fit 2 chunks of 703 into and away you go. All those @#$&%// ! pillows tge War Dept. has strewn about probably have more impact….