Quatros and M5 amps are here

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

I checked that before I installed them… The thin washers in my kit (qty 4 total) are 0.15. And the thick ones are about 0.6.  If I am doing something wrong, I am not proud and take feedback well. 

Jon, my bad!  I can't argue with your analog result, LOL.  I ordered those washers (hard to find and expensive) but was not aware they had come in and are now in the kits!  RV

[Moose]

I'm sorry if this is a repeat.  It seems like the Quatros need less toe in if you can keep them away from a side boundary.  I think they work best on the long wall of a room.  When I first heard them at Overture Audio in Ann Arbor, MI, they were on the long wall of a dedicated listening room.  It was the best room I've been in at a dealer.  They were farther apart than I would have placed them, and had 0 degrees of toe-in.  They really worked well, but the side walls were probably 10 ' away, if not farther.  They seem to have excellent horizontal dispersion, so tame the side walls if you can.  I have to put them on the short wall, and my wife won't allow any more "room modifying devices", so they have to be toed in.

[Stringreen]

I was at a dealer's showroom today.  The display was top of the line Focal and Naim equipment.....about a million dollars.   ...very nice.  My system was surprisingly better in recreating the air and dimensionality of live music.

[JonM]

3 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Jon, my bad!  I can't argue with your analog result, LOL.  I ordered those washers (hard to find and expensive) but was not aware they had come in and are now in the kits!  RV

No worries, the 0.15s give us better precision.  4 in the kit is the right number to make up one thick washer.

To me, they look like aircraft fasteners like the ones I work with daily! 

 

 

[ctsooner]

14 hours ago, Stringreen said:

I was at a dealer's showroom today.  The display was top of the line Focal and Naim equipment.....about a million dollars.   ...very nice.  My system was surprisingly better in recreating the air and dimensionality of live music.

Folks think I’m only pumping Vandys when I say that I heard the Wilson Chronosonic or how ever you spell it, with all the top DCS and D’Agastino hear and it did nothing for me. Even when they put analog on, it was nice and big, but had very little micro and macro detail plus they were completely out of phase. 

[GdnrBob]

39 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

Folks think I’m only pumping Vandys when I say that I heard the Wilson Chronosonic or how ever you spell it, with all the top DCS and D’Agastino hear and it did nothing for me. Even when they put analog on, it was nice and big, but had very little micro and macro detail plus they were completely out of phase. 

I think the reason Wilson is so well regarded is that they are priced so high. People think that high price equals high quality-never thinking to question what they are listening to.

I call it the 'Rolex Effect'.

 

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

11 hours ago, JonM said:

No worries, the 0.15s give us better precision.  4 in the kit is the right number to make up one thick washer.

To me, they look like aircraft fasteners like the ones I work with daily! 

 

 

That is exactly what they are the anodized aluminum version.  I am sure your employer gets a much better price than I do.  RV

[ctsooner]

I believe my sons new company makes these also. They do aerospace metal stamping. He’s is Autistic and has a degree in manufacturing engineering and also one in CAD design at a Penn State school. His first job. Sorry proud dad moment. Ha.  
 

I will ask I’d he makes these. 

[JonM]

On 3/13/2022 at 10:20 AM, ctsooner said:

Folks think I’m only pumping Vandys when I say that I heard the Wilson Chronosonic or how ever you spell it, with all the top DCS and D’Agastino hear and it did nothing for me. Even when they put analog on, it was nice and big, but had very little micro and macro detail plus they were completely out of phase. 

I have never listened to Wilsons.  But I have looked at them.  The pair I looked at cost a fortune, I am sure, and they had a bunch of high precision, machined parts to adjust and align drivers.  I come from a machine tool family, I love machined metal, but I thought to myself, "that a lot of expense to adjust the speakers one time".  Seemed like a gimmick to me.  Also, the speakers themselves just don't look nice and I don't think I would want Robocop or Robocop's nemesis in my living room.

On 3/13/2022 at 11:02 AM, GdnrBob said:

I think the reason Wilson is so well regarded is that they are priced so high. People think that high price equals high quality-never thinking to question what they are listening to.

I call it the 'Rolex Effect'.

 

Bob

I used to run a side-hustle automotive upholstery company.  I did most of the work myself and had trouble / fear of scaling up.  So, when I had more work than I could handle and wanted to work less, I raised prices.  I thought: surely as you raise prices, then demand would go down.  I think that's what I learned with my fancy MBA.  But that doesn't work with luxury goods.  Just as you said, people want some stuff (luxury stuff) more when it costs more.  They perceive it as more valuable.  I kept raising prices and demand never changed.  I eventually gave the business to my brother who struggled to get through college and he made it a career.

[BKDad]

On 3/13/2022 at 2:02 PM, GdnrBob said:

I think the reason Wilson is so well regarded is that they are priced so high. People think that high price equals high quality-never thinking to question what they are listening to.

I call it the 'Rolex Effect'.

 

Bob

I think Thorstein Veblen beat you to it.  Sorta.  He didn't use Rolex watches as the centerpiece, though.

Trick question:  What's more valuable than a new Rolex watch?

 

FWIW, some of my audio friends own Wilson Audio loudspeakers and love them.  Neither my wife nor I do.  I'm glad there's choices.  

I recall seeing and hearing the original WAMMs.  The impression I took away from that experience was, "Holy cow!"  Not so much for the sound, but for the size of them.

[GdnrBob]

I should have added that Rolex watches are well made. My bugaboo is that you can get an even better crafted/designed watch for the money they are asking for.-Much like or Vandy speakers/amps.

B

 

[BKDad]

BTW, I've simulated these capacitor based DC blockers for AC mains distortion.  

The problem is that for power amplifiers, you need pretty large cap values in order to minimize new problems you cause by adding this blocker.  They tend to rival the size of the DC supply filter caps.  The only good part is that they don't need to be really high voltage caps.

Nothing comes for free...

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, JonM said:

…
I used to run a side-hustle automotive upholstery company. .,,
… I eventually gave the business to my brother who struggled to get through college and he made it a career.

A stitch in time saves nine.

 

 

1 hour ago, BKDad said:

…
Trick question:  What's more valuable than a new Rolex watch?
…

Time?

[BKDad]

10 minutes ago, Holmz said:

Time?

Nice guess.  In fact, very nice philosophical guess.  But, a bit too vague.  

If nobody gets it, I'll eventually tell.  Hint: It has something to with Veblen's ideas.

[JonM]

I set the adjustable bass/room EQ today.  Basic thoughts, top-level:

• Not a difficult process, but can be tedious
• The EQ pots actually work and they are repeatable.  You can see the meter move directly with changes.  No DSP "hocus pocus".
• The EQ pots are hard to see if you can't see well up close and your speakers are near the wall and you are on the larger side
• I did the process by myself using my work phone and my home phone and FaceTime.  This works great.
• I did the initial room measurements while I was standing comfortably at a counter.  This was a bad idea.  When I did the pot adjustment at the speakers, I was sitting/crouched down by the speaker.  I think (actually I know) I acted as a 250-pound dough bass trap.  The meter would change when I left or arrived next to the speaker.  In hindsight, I should have done the baseline room measurement for the left speaker when I was in "adjustment position" not off to the side out of the picture.  Then done the same for the right side.
• When you change one pot during the adjustment cycle, when you get to other pots, they won't read the same as they did during the baseline measurement.  Sometimes they were a new number I did not expect.  Sort of like how valve adjustments work on German cars and motorcycles.  One pot should not affect another, but it does.  It is super tempting to adjust the next "changed" pot accordingly.  I didn't do this.  I stuck to the baseline targets and tried to hit those.  
• All the pots are clocked the same min-to-max, but I sort of think Pot 1 is clocked slightly differently.  I can't prove that.  The pots are delicate, I am sure, but I had no issues.
• I probably spent 2 or 2.5 hours on the procedure.  I watched the whole video on Youtube and followed it just fine.  I had some false starts and learning curve issues, but generally took my time.  It will be fun to re-check them some other day, and that's not hard to do.
• I did shut off all the HVAC in the house.  And the refrigerator (located within earshot of listening position) and turned off anything I could that made noise.  Now I am a little paranoid I hear some hum in my left M5 amp, but it's still very minor.

[JonM]

Some pics from todays action. Cats do not help when you need house dead quiet. 
 

[GdnrBob]

This is a great post in that it offers direct experience. I also like the black cat as well as the wooden high chairs.

Perhaps Mr. V. can offer additional insight/advice to any of your issues with adjustments.

Bob

[JonM]

Wood counters stools are Cherner in Redgum. 
 

I think I ended up with a great result. Where I couldn’t hit the target, I maxed out the pot. That’s all she’s got, captain. The Quatro doesn’t have a lot to work with at 20 Hz. Still better than baseline in all respects. I will spend the next days working out the bass level we like. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

I set the adjustable bass/room EQ today.  Basic thoughts, top-level:

• Not a difficult process, but can be tedious
• The EQ pots actually work and they are repeatable.  You can see the meter move directly with changes.  No DSP "hocus pocus".
• The EQ pots are hard to see if you can't see well up close and your speakers are near the wall and you are on the larger side
• I did the process by myself using my work phone and my home phone and FaceTime.  This works great.
• I did the initial room measurements while I was standing comfortably at a counter.  This was a bad idea.  When I did the pot adjustment at the speakers, I was sitting/crouched down by the speaker.  I think (actually I know) I acted as a 250-pound dough bass trap.  The meter would change when I left or arrived next to the speaker.  In hindsight, I should have done the baseline room measurement for the left speaker when I was in "adjustment position" not off to the side out of the picture.  Then done the same for the right side.
• When you change one pot during the adjustment cycle, when you get to other pots, they won't read the same as they did during the baseline measurement.  Sometimes they were a new number I did not expect.  Sort of like how valve adjustments work on German cars and motorcycles.  One pot should not affect another, but it does.  It is super tempting to adjust the next "changed" pot accordingly.  I didn't do this.  I stuck to the baseline targets and tried to hit those.  
• All the pots are clocked the same min-to-max, but I sort of think Pot 1 is clocked slightly differently.  I can't prove that.  The pots are delicate, I am sure, but I had no issues.
• I probably spent 2 or 2.5 hours on the procedure.  I watched the whole video on Youtube and followed it just fine.  I had some false starts and learning curve issues, but generally took my time.  It will be fun to re-check them some other day, and that's not hard to do.
• I did shut off all the HVAC in the house.  And the refrigerator (located within earshot of listening position) and turned off anything I could that made noise.  Now I am a little paranoid I hear some hum in my left M5 amp, but it's still very minor.

Jon, the test disc works from the bottom frequencies up.  This is because the lower pots definitely affect the upper ones because they are harmonics!  This is the reason we start with the lower frequencies.  Looking at your chart I think some of your first shots are slightly  better than the third end point.  This is curious.  Dips are very benign but one wants to get the peaks as near to target as possible because if you are tempted to lower peaks your sound will be unengaging and you may as well use DSP.  Your ear/brain know you did not fix the space so all we want to do is lessen the rooms issues.  It is normal in some power situations to have a slight mechanical hum from these large R core transformers.  Overall these are very good results.  RV 

[TomicTime]

i try but don’t always achieve it to not, NOT max out a pot. 😉 looking good Jon. For reference when you heard my 7’s, Q was set to .7, cause i knew we would play Mezzanine…

Veblen was a fellow economist, the “ dismal science “, lucky for me..i escaped tge scars…. time ? …. “ Time isn’t holding up, Time isn’t after us…Same as it ever was, Same as it every was…letting the days go by…”

Talking Heads

[JonM]

49 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Looking at your chart I think some of your first shots are slightly  better than the third end point.  This is curious. 

Yep it is curious. Here is what happened.  For baseline measurements, I was standing away to the side well out of the way of the mic and also the speakers.  I made the adjustments to target for measured output 1 sitting right next to the speaker on the floor near the outboard subwoofer grilles.  Used iPad to see meter and I sat there and adjusted the pots. This seemed to work great. Then, because I a geek and I like to leave nothing to chance or regret, I measured again all the tracks back in the  position where I stood for the baseline measurements.  I got different results.  I could not reproduce same readings exactly.  My thinking is my 250 pounds of (pretty soft and out of shape) mass right next to the speaker affects the bass performance.  For the third and final run, I stood well away from the speakers, I would come in for tiny adjustments, and trial and error it until I got to target.  I think I was the variable in the equation!

[JonM]

Also, I am glad to hear confirmation that adjustment of one pot can affect another!!

[GdnrBob]

Though I don't own a model with integrated subs, I find all this information to be very helpful. 

Who knows, I might hit the lottery!

Bob

[ctsooner]

Bob, with inflation I think you can double your charges now!  Ha. 🙂