First European owner of the 1ci+

[Holmz]

11 hours ago, ldejong said:

Yes I am! What a speaker, I'm so happy I took the splurge. 
i can only imagine what the bigger models can do! I already now that I will never sell these speakers. 

Those speakers, with a sub, are likely a best choice (IMO). 

But I say that because the room reminds we of a place we stayed at in Copenhavn, and many rooms in Europe are smaller.

So while quatros may sound better, you need a chair or sofa in the room, if one wants to actually sit and listen.
It is not surprising that you like them.

[Anters]

Aha, I see you have the 1Ci+ and YBA combo with Sommercable and Oyaide GYT spades…that means you must be as happy as Larry?  

I’m also as happy as Larry with the 1Ci, YBA A100, Rel T7i, and Isol-8 Mini-Sub Axis.  I’m also using bare wire but will look into the GYT spades once I upgrade to Audio Note speaker cable.

Interesting that you’re finding your combo bright as mine is perfect at the top end.  I’ve read on the Forum that some Vandys may need 100 hours burn in…perhaps that’ll do it?  Mine are secondhand so I didn’t have that problem.  Otherwise perhaps it’s the Sommercable?  I’m using Van Dame UP-LOCFC Hi-Fi Speaker Cable 6.00 mm2.

Any thoughts about upgrading the binding posts on our YBA amps?  I’ve found someone who can do it at a good price…my next project!

 

[GdnrBob]

59 minutes ago, Anters said:

but will look into the GYT spades once I upgrade to Audio Note speaker cable.

Not to be a buttinsky, but I would get a pair of Audioquest Rocket 88 or GO-4 cable, probably easily available used. 

From my experience, AQ works well with Vandersteen speakers. I put this out to save you additional expense.

1 hour ago, Anters said:

Any thoughts about upgrading the binding posts on our YBA amps?

I would put my money on a better integrated amp- Which is not to say the YBA amp is lacking, but I don't think upgrading binding posts to be a good move. 

JMHO

Bob

[ldejong]

11 hours ago, Anters said:

Aha, I see you have the 1Ci+ and YBA combo with Sommercable and Oyaide GYT spades…that means you must be as happy as Larry?  

I’m also as happy as Larry with the 1Ci, YBA A100, Rel T7i, and Isol-8 Mini-Sub Axis.  I’m also using bare wire but will look into the GYT spades once I upgrade to Audio Note speaker cable.

Interesting that you’re finding your combo bright as mine is perfect at the top end.  I’ve read on the Forum that some Vandys may need 100 hours burn in…perhaps that’ll do it?  Mine are secondhand so I didn’t have that problem.  Otherwise perhaps it’s the Sommercable?  I’m using Van Dame UP-LOCFC Hi-Fi Speaker Cable 6.00 mm2.

Any thoughts about upgrading the binding posts on our YBA amps?  I’ve found someone who can do it at a good price…my next project!

 

Ah, a fellow Larry aficionado! In my experience his knowledge and advice are sound, pun intended. 
He has given me lot's of advice and of course, I had to trust the process, but I'm really happy. 

To your questions, I definitely think that the sommercable is the culprit that gives me that harsh/bright sound. 
And I can explain it too. 

So I have upgraded my powercables to AN-ISIS 1,8m cables with oyaide 037 plugs, 2 lengths. 
One for the amp and one for the 'audio-grade' wireworld powerstrip' (around 100 bucks). 
The rest stayed the same, so the same amp, same laptop for streaming and same positioning speakers. 
Immediately there was more warmness, the treble was airier and the brightness was gone. I was super duper happy. 
Could listen to it for ages. It was so neutral without being analytical. 

Just a couple of days ago I changed the powerstrip for the ISOL8 minisub axis and the bass was better (tighter where it should be tight and lose where it should be lose). 
The midrange was even more realistic and a bit more forward (a good thing because in my room midrange is a bit sucked out). 
But: the brightness returned, of course, there is also more detail and the treble is also more neutral. 
Power coupling is also better, sometimes I'm scared when a new instrument comes into the mix (think about Dave Brubeck Three to get ready when suddenly the sax starts playing). 
There could be three reasons for the return of the brightness, first, the old powerstrip brought more fake warmness to the system. 
Second, the ISOL8 adds that brightness (I do not think so, because nobody that I spoke with mentioned that, but still could be the case). 
And third, what I think, the ISOL8 made the speakercable more shine through. And as we know sommercable Elephant is known for giving a bit of a harsh/bright sound. 
BTW Sommercable is used bare wire, I will put the GYT spades on my new cable. 

I already have the AN-LX96 cable and the GYT spades. I'm just waiting for the AN-solder. But it's stuck with customs and I think they may have lost the package... 
So I'm already waiting for over a month to get it. 
I think when I put the AN cable in the system everything will click together. 

Second question. 
My upgrade path, I discussed this with Larry to get the most out of the system: 
1. AMP (YBA A200) bought it in December 2021 
2. Speakers (1ci+) bought it in March/April 
3. upgrading powercables (AN-ISIS, should be wattgate 350, but I got a killer deal second-hand for ISIS cables with oyaide 037) 
4. upgrading speaker cable (Bought it, but waiting for solder) 
5. Buying ISOL8 minisub axis (great upgrade as said, but I skipped step 4, so I think there is some hidden potential). 

I will stop for now and just enjoy the sound. 
but will start next year with: 
6. buying the basic streamer (so full streamer, with the Jcat cards and lpsu) will probably be around 4k 
7. Upgrading the streamer further with cables and stuff like that. (this could easily take another year or two)
8. than upgrading the YBA amp (not only binding posts but also internal wire and inlet-r) 
9. Could be adding a DAC or improving steamer to an even higher level. 

Larry advised me to not touch the amp before the streamer is at least on a basic level. 
Otherwise, the bad streamer would shine through because upgrading the amp will also make it less forgiving of a bad source/bad cables. 
So I would suggest first getting all the basics in order, and then start looking at upgrading the amp. 

Furthermore do not change only the binding-post, that could easily ruin the sound because the internal wiring is still on a really basic level. 
So when changing the binding-posts also change the internals. 

10 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

Not to be a buttinsky, but I would get a pair of Audioquest Rocket 88 or GO-4 cable, probably easily available used. 

From my experience, AQ works well with Vandersteen speakers. I put this out to save you additional expense.

I would put my money on a better integrated amp- Which is not to say the YBA amp is lacking, but I don't think upgrading binding posts to be a good move. 

JMHO

Bob

I already bought the AN-LX96 cable, so already went full berserk:) 
I will let you know how it sounds though. 

Of course buying a different, probably also more expensive amp, could definitely elevate the sound to a higher level. 
But upgrading the amp with better (AN) wire and (AN) speaker terminals and oyaide inlet-r can make the YBA truly come alive. 
BTW the YBA A200 is already on a great level, around 2,5k so I do not think an upgrade is really necessary in my situation right now. 
But I do have my eyes on some pretty nice audio note gear, but that's wishful thinking because I can not afford it even on the secondhand market.   

 

On 6/22/2022 at 2:28 AM, Holmz said:

Those speakers, with a sub, are likely a best choice (IMO). 

But I say that because the room reminds we of a place we stayed at in Copenhavn, and many rooms in Europe are smaller.

So while quatros may sound better, you need a chair or sofa in the room, if one wants to actually sit and listen.
It is not surprising that you like them.

Yes as stated my room is small, even in Europe. But I think way more people in Europe have small rooms. 
If I could make a wish it would a room that is 1m wider. So the speakers have just a tad more room to breathe. 
Quatros would overwhelm the room hahaha.   

[GdnrBob]

10 hours ago, ldejong said:

Quatros would overwhelm the room hahaha. 

That sentiment is often given. But, if they can fit in the room, the Quatro's would probably sound great.

I would get them, but, alas, I do not have the room- the extra few inches in depth would cramp the piano on one side. Sigh....😔

B

[Richard Vandersteen]

12 hours ago, ldejong said:

Ah, a fellow Larry aficionado! In my experience his knowledge and advice are sound, pun intended. 
He has given me lot's of advice and of course, I had to trust the process, but I'm really happy. 

To your questions, I definitely think that the sommercable is the culprit that gives me that harsh/bright sound. 
And I can explain it too. 

So I have upgraded my powercables to AN-ISIS 1,8m cables with oyaide 037 plugs, 2 lengths. 
One for the amp and one for the 'audio-grade' wireworld powerstrip' (around 100 bucks). 
The rest stayed the same, so the same amp, same laptop for streaming and same positioning speakers. 
Immediately there was more warmness, the treble was airier and the brightness was gone. I was super duper happy. 
Could listen to it for ages. It was so neutral without being analytical. 

Just a couple of days ago I changed the powerstrip for the ISOL8 minisub axis and the bass was better (tighter where it should be tight and lose where it should be lose). 
The midrange was even more realistic and a bit more forward (a good thing because in my room midrange is a bit sucked out). 
But: the brightness returned, of course, there is also more detail and the treble is also more neutral. 
Power coupling is also better, sometimes I'm scared when a new instrument comes into the mix (think about Dave Brubeck Three to get ready when suddenly the sax starts playing). 
There could be three reasons for the return of the brightness, first, the old powerstrip brought more fake warmness to the system. 
Second, the ISOL8 adds that brightness (I do not think so, because nobody that I spoke with mentioned that, but still could be the case). 
And third, what I think, the ISOL8 made the speakercable more shine through. And as we know sommercable Elephant is known for giving a bit of a harsh/bright sound. 
BTW Sommercable is used bare wire, I will put the GYT spades on my new cable. 

I already have the AN-LX96 cable and the GYT spades. I'm just waiting for the AN-solder. But it's stuck with customs and I think they may have lost the package... 
So I'm already waiting for over a month to get it. 
I think when I put the AN cable in the system everything will click together. 

Second question. 
My upgrade path, I discussed this with Larry to get the most out of the system: 
1. AMP (YBA A200) bought it in December 2021 
2. Speakers (1ci+) bought it in March/April 
3. upgrading powercables (AN-ISIS, should be wattgate 350, but I got a killer deal second-hand for ISIS cables with oyaide 037) 
4. upgrading speaker cable (Bought it, but waiting for solder) 
5. Buying ISOL8 minisub axis (great upgrade as said, but I skipped step 4, so I think there is some hidden potential). 

I will stop for now and just enjoy the sound. 
but will start next year with: 
6. buying the basic streamer (so full streamer, with the Jcat cards and lpsu) will probably be around 4k 
7. Upgrading the streamer further with cables and stuff like that. (this could easily take another year or two)
8. than upgrading the YBA amp (not only binding posts but also internal wire and inlet-r) 
9. Could be adding a DAC or improving steamer to an even higher level. 

Larry advised me to not touch the amp before the streamer is at least on a basic level. 
Otherwise, the bad streamer would shine through because upgrading the amp will also make it less forgiving of a bad source/bad cables. 
So I would suggest first getting all the basics in order, and then start looking at upgrading the amp. 

Furthermore do not change only the binding-post, that could easily ruin the sound because the internal wiring is still on a really basic level. 
So when changing the binding-posts also change the internals. 

I already bought the AN-LX96 cable, so already went full berserk:) 
I will let you know how it sounds though. 

Of course buying a different, probably also more expensive amp, could definitely elevate the sound to a higher level. 
But upgrading the amp with better (AN) wire and (AN) speaker terminals and oyaide inlet-r can make the YBA truly come alive. 
BTW the YBA A200 is already on a great level, around 2,5k so I do not think an upgrade is really necessary in my situation right now. 
But I do have my eyes on some pretty nice audio note gear, but that's wishful thinking because I can not afford it even on the secondhand market.   

 

Yes as stated my room is small, even in Europe. But I think way more people in Europe have small rooms. 
If I could make a wish it would a room that is 1m wider. So the speakers have just a tad more room to breathe. 
Quatros would overwhelm the room hahaha.   

Evaluate every move in your system before investing any money because often upgrades and mods recommended by Audiophiles are simply brighter or more forward!  Too much of that can kill a systems musicality and render even more music unlistenable.  Be careful and enjoy the music.  RV

[Anters]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:17 AM, GdnrBob said:

Not to be a buttinsky, but I would get a pair of Audioquest Rocket 88 or GO-4 cable, probably easily available used. 

From my experience, AQ works well with Vandersteen speakers. I put this out to save you additional expense.

Idejong and I are following advice from a guy called Larry on a YouTube channel called 'Real HiFi Help'.   Larry and his friends spent decades trying every kind of system you can imagine along with loads of cables.  In the video below, he talks about 20-40 cables that stick out in his mind as being good (so imagine how many he's tried in total), and he thinks the Audio Note LX-96 cable is the best value cable for people who value a natural and musical sound.   So although the AQ cables may be cheaper, they probably won't give me the naturality I'm looking for.

On 6/25/2022 at 1:17 AM, GdnrBob said:

I would put my money on a better integrated amp- Which is not to say the YBA amp is lacking, but I don't think upgrading binding posts to be a good move. 

It depends on what kind of sound one is interested in achieving and the synergy between the amp and speaker; and synergy is hard to predict...you have to simply try it and listen.  Have you actually heard this combination?   The synergy is phenomenal. 

In the last 3 months I listened to £150,000+ systems at three audio shows in the last two months (High-End Munich, HiFi Deluxe, and the North-West Audio Show).  Each time, I returned home and listened to my system, the more I marvelled at how it gives a hint of 'high-end' without the price tag. 

I've also been listening to sub £25k systems at my local dealers and none of them come close to this combo: 1ci (£800 2nd hand) and YBA A100 (£950 new).

Larry's goal is to seek a natural realistic sound that's musical and works with any kind of music, which led him to Audio Note because of the way they control all the components (including wiring & solder) in the chain to protect the delicate audio signal as it passes its way through the system to the speakers.  YBA/Vandersteen produces a similar sound at a far lower cost and replacing the binding posts and internal wiring with Audio Note components costing just £500 improves it even further. 

The video below goes into it in more detail.

 

[Anters]

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

Ah, a fellow Larry aficionado! In my experience his knowledge and advice are sound, pun intended. 
He has given me lot's of advice and of course, I had to trust the process, but I'm really happy. 

Nice to meet another Larry adventurer. 

Trusting the process was initially hard, but when I heard the synergy between the 1ci's and YBA A100 it made buying the ISOL-8 Mini Sub Axis so much easier and wow what a difference it made.  

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

To your questions, I definitely think that the sommercable is the culprit that gives me that harsh/bright sound. 
And I can explain it too. 

So I have upgraded my powercables to AN-ISIS 1,8m cables with oyaide 037 plugs, 2 lengths. 

Unfortunately, I made the mistake of buying my Isol8 with UK sockets and UK plugs have fuses that mess up the sound, so I'm going to have to sell it and re-purchase with Schuko sockets instead.  So until then, I'm not upgrading my power cables. 

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

One for the amp and one for the 'audio-grade' wireworld powerstrip' (around 100 bucks). 
The rest stayed the same, so the same amp, same laptop for streaming and same positioning speakers. 
Immediately there was more warmness, the treble was airier and the brightness was gone. I was super duper happy. 
Could listen to it for ages. It was so neutral without being analytical. 

That's also been my experience - non-analytical, but I'd describe it as natural rather than neutral especially as there is a bit of warmth to the midrange probably due to the woofer providing some of the mids in the absence of a dedicated midrange driver.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

Just a couple of days ago I changed the powerstrip for the ISOL8 minisub axis and the bass was better (tighter where it should be tight and lose where it should be lose). 
The midrange was even more realistic and a bit more forward (a good thing because in my room midrange is a bit sucked out). 
But: the brightness returned, of course, there is also more detail and the treble is also more neutral. 
Power coupling is also better, sometimes I'm scared when a new instrument comes into the mix (think about Dave Brubeck Three to get ready when suddenly the sax starts playing). 
There could be three reasons for the return of the brightness, first, the old powerstrip brought more fake warmness to the system. 
Second, the ISOL8 adds that brightness (I do not think so, because nobody that I spoke with mentioned that, but still could be the case). 
And third, what I think, the ISOL8 made the speakercable more shine through. And as we know sommercable Elephant is known for giving a bit of a harsh/bright sound. 
BTW Sommercable is used bare wire, I will put the GYT spades on my new cable. 

All sounds plausible, and I agree it's unlikely to be the ISOL8 as you can add me to the list of people who haven't experienced brightness with it.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

I already have the AN-LX96 cable and the GYT spades. I'm just waiting for the AN-solder. But it's stuck with customs and I think they may have lost the package... 
So I'm already waiting for over a month to get it. 

It will be interesting to hear what effect the GYT spades and AN-LX96 and GYT spades have as our systems are almost identical (even down to the subwoofers!).  I'd wager that our rooms differ more than our systems.   I'm currently in a temporary room which is far from ideal 7'x13'.  I have my speakers on the long wall and very close to it, so I'm in a near-field listening position. 

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

I think when I put the AN cable in the system everything will click together. 

Second question. 
My upgrade path, I discussed this with Larry to get the most out of the system: 
1. AMP (YBA A200) bought it in December 2021 
2. Speakers (1ci+) bought it in March/April 
3. upgrading powercables (AN-ISIS, should be wattgate 350, but I got a killer deal second-hand for ISIS cables with oyaide 037) 
4. upgrading speaker cable (Bought it, but waiting for solder) 
5. Buying ISOL8 minisub axis (great upgrade as said, but I skipped step 4, so I think there is some hidden potential). 

The ISOL8 was the most expensive component in my system, and my amp doesn't have a built in DAC, so my current DAC (RME ADI-2 Pro FS) is probably the weakest link.  I can hear it's a bit digital as it over sharpens the edges of the music...my CD player is far more relaxed and more natural sounding.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

I will stop for now and just enjoy the sound. 

Yes!  that's exactly what I've been doing for the last year...just enjoying it.  I've had zero interest in purchasing new equipment and I don't even watch review videos any more.  I've not even been watching any of Larry's videos.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

but will start next year with: 
6. buying the basic streamer (so full streamer, with the Jcat cards and lpsu) will probably be around 4k 
7. Upgrading the streamer further with cables and stuff like that. (this could easily take another year or two)
8. than upgrading the YBA amp (not only binding posts but also internal wire and inlet-r) 
9. Could be adding a DAC or improving steamer to an even higher level. 
Larry advised me to not touch the amp before the streamer is at least on a basic level. 
Otherwise, the bad streamer would shine through because upgrading the amp will also make it less forgiving of a bad source/bad cables. 
So I would suggest first getting all the basics in order, and then start looking at upgrading the amp. 

Agreed - I watched Larry's videos on "the world's greatest streamer", but I was put off by the cost and that technology keeps changing.  Instead, I decided to get a really good CD player (YBA Passion 600 from 2005) for critical listening and the Pi2AES for streaming which is an ethernet streamer that doesn't have USB and so avoids a lot of issues relating to jitter.

My next upgrade will be a new DAC and I'll probably get an AN 2.1 Signature, but I'm not in any hurry.  Given the high cost, I think I'll upgrade the amp first because it's just low hanging fruit.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

Furthermore do not change only the binding-post, that could easily ruin the sound because the internal wiring is still on a really basic level. 
So when changing the binding-posts also change the internals. 

Yes, that's the plan...to also upgrade the wiring.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

I already bought the AN-LX96 cable, so already went full berserk:) 
I will let you know how it sounds though. 

Will be really useful to hear how much of a difference it makes also with the spades...my other upgrade before replacing my DAC.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

Of course buying a different, probably also more expensive amp, could definitely elevate the sound to a higher level. 
But upgrading the amp with better (AN) wire and (AN) speaker terminals and oyaide inlet-r can make the YBA truly come alive. 
BTW the YBA A200 is already on a great level, around 2,5k so I do not think an upgrade is really necessary in my situation right now. 
But I do have my eyes on some pretty nice audio note gear, but that's wishful thinking because I can not afford it even on the secondhand market. 

Upgrading the amp is a longer term project for me...years away.   Since my plan is to any way keep what I have as a 2nd system, taking it all the way with amp upgrade makes sense.

23 hours ago, ldejong said:

Yes as stated my room is small, even in Europe. But I think way more people in Europe have small rooms. 
If I could make a wish it would a room that is 1m wider. So the speakers have just a tad more room to breathe. 
Quatros would overwhelm the room hahaha.   

You could try what I'm doing: putting them on the long wall and listening more near-field.  It produces a more intimate listening experience but with a more expansive soundstage as the speakers can be further apart.

[ctsooner]

Trying to catch up on this thread.  The one thing that really sticks out to me is when you follow folks on YouTube and they are telling you what graet cables are etc, I wonder what systems they are using to do this and how long are the listening and......

We all hear differently.  What's bright to some, isn't bright to others. If you are using digital, that's an even bigger crap shoot as it's so dependent on the house you live in.  With Vandersteen's there seem to be specific products and types of products that work best for most of the listeners.  As Bob mentioned earlier, the Audioquest cabling is a great marriage. Richard even uses their cables for his pig tails on crossovers and his big amps etc...  

That doesn't mean that AQ is best for all or that other cables aren't really good with Vandy's etc...  Richard makes the best point of all (surprise, surprise).  I've never been about expensive tweaks until I get my system down the way I want it.  It's fun to play of course and I love reading what everyone is posting.  I guess I'd be very careful about following someone I didn't personally know when it comes to putting a system together.  I would just use that info as just another part of the equation, but not as law (is that the right word?).

Great stuff and thanks for sharing.  enjoy the music.

[GdnrBob]

I spent a few minutes looking up 'Larry' and the Audio Note cables.

It looks like the Audio Note are not readily available in the US. I was thinking of buying a set to trial, but not much available in the US.

@ctsooner makes a good point. 

2 hours ago, ctsooner said:

We all hear differently.  What's bright to some, isn't bright to others.

I know it is nice to find others who share the passion of all things 'audio'. Believe me, I wish I had the internet when I started out.

But, when I/we make suggestions, it is based on our own travails. A lot of the time, and often much money were spent following advice that didn't pan out. Hence, our recommendations- as a way to  give others a more direct path.

 

I have no experience with Audio Note or RealHifiHelp. And, I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if I could try the products myself.

Alas, YMMV, but as this forum is based in the US, just about all our recommendations are based on equipment available here.

Bob

Edited June 26, 2022 by GdnrBob

[ldejong]

13 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

I spent a few minutes looking up 'Larry' and the Audio Note cables.

It looks like the Audio Note are not readily available in the US. I was thinking of buying a set to trial, but not much available in the US.

@ctsooner makes a good point. 

I know it is nice to find others who share the passion of all things 'audio'. Believe me, I wish I had the internet when I started out.

But, when I/we make suggestions, it is based on our own travails. A lot of the time, and often much money were spent following advice that didn't pan out. Hence, our recommendations- as a way to  give others a more direct path.

 

I have no experience with Audio Note or RealHifiHelp. And, I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if I could try the products myself.

Alas, YMMV, but as this forum is based in the US, just about all our recommendations are based on equipment available here.

Bob

Really interesting, you are very open-minded! 

AN gear is way cheaper in europe (to my understanding). 
For instance the AQ rocket 88 and GO-4 are more expensive than the AN-LX96 with GYT spades. 
The rocket 88 is around €1.8k for 2,5 (pair) and GO-4 is around 650eu (pair 2,5m). 

The AN-LX96 with GYT spades is around 400eu (2,5 pair). So big difference in price. 
Fair enough I will be assemble the cable myself, so maybe the GO-4 could be the almost the same price. 
But the Rocket 88 will then still be considerably more expensive. 

So that's why I went for AN-LX96, also because Larry recommended it but it also looked to me to be a killer deal. 

[GdnrBob]

As the lyrics of 'Shaft' go:

We can dig it.

B

[Anters]

On 6/26/2022 at 9:32 PM, ctsooner said:

We all hear differently.  What's bright to some, isn't bright to others. If you are using digital, that's an even bigger crap shoot as it's so dependent on the house you live in.  With Vandersteen's there seem to be specific products and types of products that work best for most of the listeners.  

The crap shoot arises because when the signal comes off the source eg a needle it's extremely delicate and fragile.  Care needs to be taken as it passes through every cable and circuit in the system, because different metallurgy in cables and wiring will produce different effects which cannot be predicted...the system engineer has to listen with his/her ears as for the best metallurgical match when designing a system.  Then suppliers must be vetted to ensure they stick to a very strict specification, but very few brands make the effort to control every variable in the chain in this way, and almost none do this level of research on every component right down to the solder...except Audio Note (UK). 

The crap shoot then is how that delicate signal gets manipulated by pure luck of which supplier's silver wire a brand happened to use in its gear, and which brands the audiophile decide to mix together.  This is why most audiophile recommendations are a waste of time unless you're using exactly the same setup.  And even if you do, if that brand used silver wire from a different supplier then all bets are off.

Audio Note takes the crap shoot out of the equation because they've meticulously built their systems and quality control to protect the signal and create a natural, realistic and musical sound.

Larry, uses a Level 3 Audio Note system i.e. mid-tier Audio Note (for comparison level 5 costs around $500k).  He's identified YBA/Vandersteen as giving a hint of what Audio Note can do and he's also upgraded his YBA amp with AN wire, solder and binding posts which boosted its performance even further.

He's been right so far with all his gear recommendations, so I have confidence his YBA upgrade is sound.

 

[Holmz]

Is there any place that shows a scope trace of the same signal going through two cables with only the metal being changed?

Are my ears shot?

[ldejong]

10 hours ago, Anters said:

This is why most audiophile recommendations are a waste of time unless you're using exactly the same setup.  And even if you do, if that brand used silver wire from a different supplier then all bets are off.

This reminds me of Richard telling the story about his AudioQuest speakercable recomendations. 
https://youtu.be/U1pIboRkuuY?t=6110
1 hour and 45 minutes in Richard talks about the client with a room full marble. 

It's a shame there are not more interviews with you Richard, it's always nice to listen to you! 

[ctsooner]

Cable is just like any component. What’s the true return and what sounds best in your system. 
 

Personally, if you have to try and use cables to dial in a system, you may have the wrong choices up front.  What I love most about AQ cables, is that they are as neutral as it gets for me. It allows me to hear the components I’ve paid big money for. The more  I spend, the quieter, better detail, more layers of the music I hear etc….   

[Anters]

8 hours ago, Holmz said:

Is there any place that shows a scope trace of the same signal going through two cables with only the metal being changed?

Are my ears shot?

Our hearing is *allegedly* more sensitive to changes in metallurgy than measuring equipment is able to detect, but I've no idea if this is true or not.

However, I am certain it is used by snake oil salesmen to spin all sorts of nonsense to sell their products.   So how can I be so sure that Audio Note aren't spinning a yarn that's fooling me?  Answer: I can't be 100% sure, but when I hear their gear I can tell it's different to other products because it sounds more natural and they've run a successful high-end business for decades...so others agree.

At Hi-Fi Deluxe this summer, I recorded a video (file attached below) of their demonstration with a cellist playing live a piece of music written for three cellos.  The other two cellos were played back from a CD they had recorded of him playing the other two parts.  Same cello, same cellist playing all three parts.  It was seamless enough that I couldn't articulate the small difference I was hearing.  The poor acoustics of the untreated hotel room is likely the bigger factor.

In the YouTube video below, Peter Qvortrup CEO of Audio Note explains how hifi designers have been misled by measurements - he goes into the history of how the industry has lost its way. 

At 16:54 mins he explains how the Crown 350 amp can have a flat frequency response and yet sound bright, which shows that what we measure and what we hear are two different things.

24:30 Peter explains how his research consists of buying lots of components and listening to them, then testing (by listening to) his own formulations of resistors and capacitors.

26:15 History of the 4300E valve aka 300B.

28:52 How Audio Note does R&D and development with its suppliers of components.

29:50 The development of the  211 valve and the importance of a molybdenum filaments vs carbon or nickel.

31:27 Molybdenum may sound better because "...as you reduce the levels of the signals molybdenum maintains better linearity but it doesn't show in the curves."

34:45 silver in resistors

35:10 Peter explains that it's cheaper & easier to use components that measure brilliantly instead of spending $250,000 on R&D, and even if they sound rubbish you have great specs that look better than your competitors which has become the industry's formula for mediocrity.

 

[Anters]

8 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Personally, if you have to try and use cables to dial in a system, you may have the wrong choices up front.  What I love most about AQ cables, is that they are as neutral as it gets for me. It allows me to hear the components I’ve paid big money for. The more  I spend, the quieter, better detail, more layers of the music I hear etc….   

One should ideally only choose the speakers and components after auditioning them *together* to confirm they can produce the type of sound one's looking for.  Experimenting with cables is more about refining the sound of that system because e.g. your room is different to the auditioning room; or you just used electrical cord to start with due to budget constraints; or to get that extra ounce of e.g. detail, clarity, brightness or whatever it is you value.  

So even though AQ cables may be neutral, neutral may not be what's needed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'Neutral' different from 'natural' in that it lies in the middle of the tonality spectrum between warm and cool?   Natural is something else, but I've yet to hear a good definition.  My working definition is it's about not damaging the signal coming off the needle to give the recording the best chance to be heard properly, so that with good recordings the music sounds lifelike.

 

[ctsooner]

Not sure if I’m explaining my point correctly. It’s not always easy for me as most who know me understand. 
 

I totally agree that components must be auditioned together if you can. As for neutral, I mean that it gets out of the way better than any other cable I’ve used or auditioned. I’ve had friends bring over some of the exotics etc, but to me, I always come back to the AQ line that Garth has designed. I’ve heard the British and also the Japanese AN hear over the years and they are lovely. Very musical and easy to listen to. I believe it’s the British company that I like best, but I honestly can’t remember. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

5 hours ago, Anters said:

One should ideally only choose the speakers and components after auditioning them *together* to confirm they can produce the type of sound one's looking for.  Experimenting with cables is more about refining the sound of that system because e.g. your room is different to the auditioning room; or you just used electrical cord to start with due to budget constraints; or to get that extra ounce of e.g. detail, clarity, brightness or whatever it is you value.  

So even though AQ cables may be neutral, neutral may not be what's needed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'Neutral' different from 'natural' in that it lies in the middle of the tonality spectrum between warm and cool?   Natural is something else, but I've yet to hear a good definition.  My working definition is it's about not damaging the signal coming off the needle to give the recording the best chance to be heard properly, so that with good recordings the music sounds lifelike.

 

Does a piano sound like a piano sounds when you actually hear one or does it sound like a stereo playing piano?   Many, many years ago I went to the Frankfort Hi Fi show with my international distributor, RIP for the first time and saw all these beautiful small tube amps driving the brightest speakers I had ever heard, room after room.  At lunch my distributor asked if I wanted to export Vandersteen but said to him our speakers are not bright enough.  Weeks after returning back to the US he called and said he had a person interested to import our speakers but wanted a special version with higher tweeter output.   I responded that they measure flat and that they would stay that way because my name is on the back of every one of them!  Neutral, natural, whatever word you use would not define what most speakers sound like in the market today.  RV

[Richard Vandersteen]

6 hours ago, Anters said:

Our hearing is *allegedly* more sensitive to changes in metallurgy than measuring equipment is able to detect, but I've no idea if this is true or not.

However, I am certain it is used by snake oil salesmen to spin all sorts of nonsense to sell their products.   So how can I be so sure that Audio Note aren't spinning a yarn that's fooling me?  Answer: I can't be 100% sure, but when I hear their gear I can tell it's different to other products because it sounds more natural and they've run a successful high-end business for decades...so others agree.

At Hi-Fi Deluxe this summer, I recorded a video (file attached below) of their demonstration with a cellist playing live a piece of music written for three cellos.  The other two cellos were played back from a CD they had recorded of him playing the other two parts.  Same cello, same cellist playing all three parts.  It was seamless enough that I couldn't articulate the small difference I was hearing.  The poor acoustics of the untreated hotel room is likely the bigger factor.

In the YouTube video below, Peter Qvortrup CEO of Audio Note explains how hifi designers have been misled by measurements - he goes into the history of how the industry has lost its way. 

At 16:54 mins he explains how the Crown 350 amp can have a flat frequency response and yet sound bright, which shows that what we measure and what we hear are two different things.

24:30 Peter explains how his research consists of buying lots of components and listening to them, then testing (by listening to) his own formulations of resistors and capacitors.

26:15 History of the 4300E valve aka 300B.

28:52 How Audio Note does R&D and development with its suppliers of components.

29:50 The development of the  211 valve and the importance of a molybdenum filaments vs carbon or nickel.

31:27 Molybdenum may sound better because "...as you reduce the levels of the signals molybdenum maintains better linearity but it doesn't show in the curves."

34:45 silver in resistors

35:10 Peter explains that it's cheaper & easier to use components that measure brilliantly instead of spending $250,000 on R&D, and even if they sound rubbish you have great specs that look better than your competitors which has become the industry's formula for mediocrity.

 

It is my experience that most measurements don't always define what a component sounds like because they are amplitude based with no real regard for time.  All candidates for inclusion in a good Hi-Fi should measure well and sound good using transients for stimulus instead of sinewaves.  Once these products are measured, they will seldom experience a sinewave again as music is mostly a sequence of transients.  The timing of these transients and how they intertwine will distinguish between a guitar and violin tuned to the same note (frequency) and is notably more evident when listened to on speakers that are time and phase correct.  All components used in a system with long term satisfaction should measure well in frequency response, impulse response and distortion, IMO.  I believe we can measure anything we want but we have not designed a proper test yet especially considering timing.  RV

[Holmz]

16 hours ago, Anters said:

Our hearing is *allegedly* more sensitive to changes in metallurgy than measuring equipment is able to detect, but I've no idea if this is true or not.

I don’t know either.
I am not sure that there is a big difference between copper and silver, but steel and nickel do have magnetic properties… so they could/should differ.

 

16 hours ago, Anters said:

…

At 16:54 mins he explains how the Crown 350 amp can have a flat frequency response and yet sound bright, which shows that what we measure and what we hear are two different things.

And Ralph Karsten (Atmasphere amps) says the same thing about the harmonic signature defining the sound of the amp, and the 2nd harmonic is routinely used to mask 3rd and beyond.
He also says that it can be measured, but many do not do those measurements.

 

10 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

It is my experience that most measurements don't always define what a component sounds like because they are amplitude based with no real regard for time.  All candidates for inclusion in a good Hi-Fi should measure well and sound good using transients for stimulus instead of sinewaves.  Once these products are measured, they will seldom experience a sinewave again as music is mostly a sequence of transients.  The timing of these transients and how they intertwine will distinguish between a guitar and violin tuned to the same note (frequency) and is notably more evident when listened to on speakers that are time and phase correct.  All components used in a system with long term satisfaction should measure well in frequency response, impulse response and distortion, IMO.  I believe we can measure anything we want but we have not designed a proper test yet especially considering timing.  RV

Isn’t that covered with an impulse response measurement?
And phase covered with a step response?

But I agree that almost everyone else is in locked step over frequency response.

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

I don’t know either.
I am not sure that there is a big difference between copper and silver, but steel and nickel do have magnetic properties… so they could/should differ.

 

And Ralph Karsten (Atmasphere amps) says the same thing about the harmonic signature defining the sound of the amp, and the 2nd harmonic is routinely used to mask 3rd and beyond.
He also says that it can be measured, but many do not do those measurements.

 

Isn’t that covered with an impulse response measurement?
And phase covered with a step response?

But I agree that almost everyone else is in locked step over frequency response.

Yes, but there is room for interpolation when measuring electronics, but it is very reveling for speaker testing.  Some distortions can be heard at low levels, and some are not a problem until the numbers get higher.  One of the advantages of an amplifier that doesn't use feedback is to test well its circuit must be very well sorted out in the first place.  The harmonic spectrum is also interesting and some of us know what ratios sound true to music and what spectrums are not musical.  This is where measurements and listening experience come into play.  I never argue with anyone over any of these issues because ultimately who am I to say, "Time and Phase", or no feedback is important if they don't hear it, but all that means is that person (reviewer) couldn't hear it, it doesn't make it fact for all of us.  RV

[ldejong]

Small update from my side, yes I'm still lurking here;) 

So I have not made any changes to the system, just a reminder. System is as follows: 

Isol-8 miniSub Axis (power conditioner) 
Integrated amp (using DAC and amp) YBA A200 
Source: cheap laptop or vinyl (Thorens TD-165) 
Cables, speakercable Audio Note LX96 and powercables Audio Note isis (with Oyaide 037/035 plugs), interlink Oyaide aswell forgot the name. 
Speakers: vandersteen 1ci+ (duhhh) 
Sub: REL T7X. 

So I let everything burn in and just enjoyed it as is. 
Thinkering with placement atm, especially tilt and positioning to back and side walls. 
Interesting how much of a difference tilt and placement makes, I'm still not sure if it's setup correctly. 

So yesterday I adjusted the tilt just half a cm (a tenth of an inch) and the soundstage became much wider and I heard way more spatial detail. 
I do not know if tilt is setup correctly now, but I it's definitely different to say the least. Placement needs more tinkering because I lost a lof of imaging and centre stage is almost gone. 
But I think that's because tilt affects everything! And I need to adjust placecment accordingly. 

As stated next year I will build my own streamer and get the source in order, but for now I'm really enjoying my setup. 
There is some slight harshness when the recording has a lot of sibilance, but other than that I'm just enjoying music and listening intently. As it should! 



 

[Holmz]

5 minutes ago, ldejong said:

…
As stated next year I will build my own streamer and get the source in order, but for now I'm really enjoying my setup. 
There is some slight harshness when the recording has a lot of sibilance, but other than that I'm just enjoying music and listening intently. As it should! 

 

Enjoying it is the key.
(Well done sir!)