New DAC day: SMSL DO100 Pro

[Aaron]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:20 PM, olds1959special said:

So far, to my ears:

With the pre-amp: better bass and fullness

without the pre-amp: better resolution and clarity

That is a pretty typical experience. However, if you were using a better preamp you would not find the same trade-off in resolution and clarity.

 

On 5/6/2024 at 5:54 PM, GdnrBob said:

Are you saying that using the digital output at less than 100% will mean cutting the signal?

And, if using a preamp and outputting at 100% will eliminate this?

Yes. However, there are two reasons why you might still want to cut the level:

1. Prevent clipping of your preamp. Modern DACs can have very high output voltage (>5 V in some cases), and some preamps cannot cope with this. In this case it is better to lose a little bit of information from digital volume attenuation than to cause clipping and distortion in the preamp.
2. Digital headroom management. It is fairly common for a digital signal to cause clipping when it's converted. This clipping occurs in the D-to-A process and is not a function of the DACs output voltage, like #1 above. This issue happens when the mastering engineer did not take proper care in managing the headroom of the recording. All that is typically needed to prevent digital clipping is to apply a -3 dB volume adjustment in the DAC. Some DACs actually implement this under the hood as part of their processing. Roon also offers 'headroom management' is a standard DSP step you can enable. Anyway, this is one of those things that you can experiment with if your DAC has a volume control. Try a -3 dB cut and see if it sounds better. Minimal data will be lost in this case since you're only reducing the volume slightly; the more you reduce the volume the more data is lost--which is one of the reasons why using a DAC as a preamp usually doesn't sound best.

 

On 5/10/2024 at 9:51 AM, BKDad said:

With some DAC conversion architectures, it's possible to vary the level of the converter output itself by changing the Vref.  No bits are changed.  

Yes, but this isn't a volume control; it's a fixed-level setting intended for matching levels with your preamp.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 1:32 PM, ctsooner said:

I've never heard a digital volume control sound as good as using a legit preamp.  Aurelic uses an analog control I believe.  I'd love to hear that one direct if I'm correct.

Yes, there are a few DACs that implement an analog volume adjustment--the Ferrum Wandla also comes to mind-- but unless you're talking about something like an MSB Reference where the analog preamp is a separate module with some serious effort put into it, a good preamp will almost certainly be better.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 2:00 PM, BKDad said:

Not to mention what the streaming services do.

Normalization is what some streaming services do. I don't believe Qobuz implements that, however.

[ctsooner]

2 hours ago, Aaron said:

That is a pretty typical experience. However, if you were using a better preamp you would not find the same trade-off in resolution and clarity.

 

Yes. However, there are two reasons why you might still want to cut the level:

1. Prevent clipping of your preamp. Modern DACs can have very high output voltage (>5 V in some cases), and some preamps cannot cope with this. In this case it is better to lose a little bit of information from digital volume attenuation than to cause clipping and distortion in the preamp.
2. Digital headroom management. It is fairly common for a digital signal to cause clipping when it's converted. This clipping occurs in the D-to-A process and is not a function of the DACs output voltage, like #1 above. This issue happens when the mastering engineer did not take proper care in managing the headroom of the recording. All that is typically needed to prevent digital clipping is to apply a -3 dB volume adjustment in the DAC. Some DACs actually implement this under the hood as part of their processing. Roon also offers 'headroom management' is a standard DSP step you can enable. Anyway, this is one of those things that you can experiment with if your DAC has a volume control. Try a -3 dB cut and see if it sounds better. Minimal data will be lost in this case since you're only reducing the volume slightly; the more you reduce the volume the more data is lost--which is one of the reasons why using a DAC as a preamp usually doesn't sound best.

 

Yes, but this isn't a volume control; it's a fixed-level setting intended for matching levels with your preamp.

 

Yes, there are a few DACs that implement an analog volume adjustment--the Ferrum Wandla also comes to mind-- but unless you're talking about something like an MSB Reference where the analog preamp is a separate module with some serious effort put into it, a good preamp will almost certainly be better.

 

Normalization is what some streaming services do. I don't believe Qobuz implements that, however.

Yes, the MSB is EXACTLY the one I was thinking of.  As I said, it's not inexpensive to add a properly done preamp (analog) to a DAC, but if done correctly, it's a great option.  If I could afford an MSB Ref DAC with analog, it's most probably the way I'd go.  I've been listening to that DAC since they came out with it.  I've heard it in many systems, and that includes with 5 CT's, Quatro's, 7's and even once with Kento's.  It's a killer piece if you can afford to go that route. You get true state of the art DAC and a TOP level pre that's designed to work with the DAC.  It's like spending 25k for each unit and only needing one box and not extra cables and cords (you can add AQ power cords to the DAC, but they implement their power supplies so that the cord is much less affective compared to most other electronics, IMHO.

 

[olds1959special]

Revisiting this thread, I've stopped using my pre-amp today and instead use a pair of RCA splitters to connect my DAC directly to my four mono blocks. Soundwise, there's more of everything, but the bass is lacking a bit of grunt. It doesn't seem to be problem as I'm enjoying how clean everything sounds. I'm considering selling my pre-amp. I'm streaming hi-res lossless and only have one source. The dac has a remote control so it's very usable.

I'm listening between 40-60 on the volume knob. I can't hear any difference from the lost bits this way, it sounds very clean, clear and full but the bass is more polite.

Edited September 4 by olds1959special

[Sbank]

Quote

 

@olds1959special IMHO, you haven't really tried a good preamp. You've pasted some real marketing hoo-ha above about benefits of digital volume. Unless you've tried a better preamp and don't hear a worthwhile difference, you're conveniently fooling yourself based on marketing propaganda. Can you borrow one from a friend to try? 

Since you have a simple setup, most any will functionally check all your boxes. Do you have a budget in mind? For example doing a quick search on USAM, for ~$700-800 there are a number of used models from Audio Research(e.g. LS7), Conrad Johnson and other stalwart brands that you could try with little resale risk/loss if it's not to your liking. I'd bet that almost all of them would provide a big step in the right direction without the loss of info you're getting via that digital volume control. 

I bet our friend @Aaron has plenty of upgrading customers offering him trade-ins of pieces right in your wheelhouse. You could give him your parameters and have him keep an eye open for you as items come in. He's a winner and knows your gear. 

On a brighter note, your Vandersteens have plenty of magic in them that will be a joy when you reveal it! Cheers...

[olds1959special]

4 hours ago, Sbank said:

@olds1959special IMHO, you haven't really tried a good preamp. You've pasted some real marketing hoo-ha above about benefits of digital volume. Unless you've tried a better preamp and don't hear a worthwhile difference, you're conveniently fooling yourself based on marketing propaganda. Can you borrow one from a friend to try? 

Since you have a simple setup, most any will functionally check all your boxes. Do you have a budget in mind? For example doing a quick search on USAM, for ~$700-800 there are a number of used models from Audio Research(e.g. LS7), Conrad Johnson and other stalwart brands that you could try with little resale risk/loss if it's not to your liking. I'd bet that almost all of them would provide a big step in the right direction without the loss of info you're getting via that digital volume control. 

I bet our friend @Aaron has plenty of upgrading customers offering him trade-ins of pieces right in your wheelhouse. You could give him your parameters and have him keep an eye open for you as items come in. He's a winner and knows your gear. 

On a brighter note, your Vandersteens have plenty of magic in them that will be a joy when you reveal it! Cheers...

I am using a Schiit Saga S now and it works fine. After switching back to the pre-amp I recognized the improvement over going from dac alone. I would like to try new pre-amps to see what difference that makes but whatever pre-amp I change to, it will need a remote, and hopefully two sets of RCA outputs. These requirements limit my options a lot, and this is only planning for the future as my budget is limited right now, especially for a pre-amp that costs over a thousand.

 

Edited September 14 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

Another consideration is space. The Schiit Saga is relatively small compared to something like the Audio Research LS7 which I wouldn't have anywhere to put on my shelf. And then, do I want to fuss with tubes? Sure they can sound great, but for just watching TV when not listening to music, tubes are definitely not necessary or helpful.

Edited September 14 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

10 hours ago, Sbank said:

@olds1959special IMHO, you haven't really tried a good preamp. You've pasted some real marketing hoo-ha above about benefits of digital volume. Unless you've tried a better preamp and don't hear a worthwhile difference, you're conveniently fooling yourself based on marketing propaganda. Can you borrow one from a friend to try? 

Since you have a simple setup, most any will functionally check all your boxes. Do you have a budget in mind? For example doing a quick search on USAM, for ~$700-800 there are a number of used models from Audio Research(e.g. LS7), Conrad Johnson and other stalwart brands that you could try with little resale risk/loss if it's not to your liking. I'd bet that almost all of them would provide a big step in the right direction without the loss of info you're getting via that digital volume control. 

I bet our friend @Aaron has plenty of upgrading customers offering him trade-ins of pieces right in your wheelhouse. You could give him your parameters and have him keep an eye open for you as items come in. He's a winner and knows your gear. 

On a brighter note, your Vandersteens have plenty of magic in them that will be a joy when you reveal it! Cheers...

I am bringing back the old Audible Illusions Modulus 2 line stage (maybe a Modulus 3) , for my daughter… To SoCal.

@https://forum.vandersteen.com/profile/314-olds1959special/

If you wanted a listen, we could maybe carve out a visit. And tote it over to you for a couple of hours of listening..

Edited September 14 by Holmz

[olds1959special]

On 5/20/2024 at 8:27 AM, Aaron said:

That is a pretty typical experience. However, if you were using a better preamp you would not find the same trade-off in resolution and clarity.

 

Yes. However, there are two reasons why you might still want to cut the level:

1. Prevent clipping of your preamp. Modern DACs can have very high output voltage (>5 V in some cases), and some preamps cannot cope with this. In this case it is better to lose a little bit of information from digital volume attenuation than to cause clipping and distortion in the preamp.
2. Digital headroom management. It is fairly common for a digital signal to cause clipping when it's converted. This clipping occurs in the D-to-A process and is not a function of the DACs output voltage, like #1 above. This issue happens when the mastering engineer did not take proper care in managing the headroom of the recording. All that is typically needed to prevent digital clipping is to apply a -3 dB volume adjustment in the DAC. Some DACs actually implement this under the hood as part of their processing. Roon also offers 'headroom management' is a standard DSP step you can enable. Anyway, this is one of those things that you can experiment with if your DAC has a volume control. Try a -3 dB cut and see if it sounds better. Minimal data will be lost in this case since you're only reducing the volume slightly; the more you reduce the volume the more data is lost--which is one of the reasons why using a DAC as a preamp usually doesn't sound best.

 

Yes, but this isn't a volume control; it's a fixed-level setting intended for matching levels with your preamp.

 

Yes, there are a few DACs that implement an analog volume adjustment--the Ferrum Wandla also comes to mind-- but unless you're talking about something like an MSB Reference where the analog preamp is a separate module with some serious effort put into it, a good preamp will almost certainly be better.

 

Normalization is what some streaming services do. I don't believe Qobuz implements that, however.

My DAC has an output voltage of 2.5V out of the RCA's. So that's 40 volume points on the remote control per volt. Right now I'm listening at 60, or 1.5V which is working well. My pre-amp is older, 80's vintage, and seems to not sound so good when I play the DAC full output into it.

Edited October 5 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

On 9/14/2024 at 4:06 PM, Holmz said:

I am bringing back the old Audible Illusions Modulus 2 line stage (maybe a Modulus 3) , for my daughter… To SoCal.

@https://forum.vandersteen.com/profile/314-olds1959special/

If you wanted a listen, we could maybe carve out a visit. And tote it over to you for a couple of hours of listening..

Now I have an AI Modulus 2C because of this post.

[Holmz]

I put it in the mail, so it should be here next week. 😎
Never pass up a free listen/demo.