New DAC day: SMSL DO100 Pro

[olds1959special]

Any fans of the new DACs by SMSL? I am testing a DO100 Pro. I sold my MHDT Lab Multibit R2R tube DAC. I got tired of the distortion I was hearing. The SMSL units, both the SU-1 that I was using before and this one, sound great. Detailed, full, with a wide, spacious presentation that is reminiscent of a tube pre-amp. Being able to choose the filters is a plus for me. I am using the linear phase fast roll-off low ripple right now. I also like minimum phase fast roll off. Some other things that working out for me with this DAC: it has XLR outputs I am converting to RCA to get a second set of outputs for my TV setup with EQ, and this is working fine. Finally, it displays the sample rate so I can see if my tracks are in hi-res or not.  

Edited April 27 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

I'm not sure if I prefer the SU-1 with its AK chip, though. This seems like a sidestep, being a SABRE DAC, it has a hollowness to the sound. I may adjust to the differences though?

[GdnrBob]

Have you tried any of the DAC's by Schitt?

Though a bit pricier, the Ayre Codex, used, should be on your radar. IMHO.

B

[olds1959special]

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

Have you tried any of the DAC's by Schitt?

Though a bit pricier, the Ayre Codex, used, should be on your radar. IMHO.

B

Yes, I just sold a Bifrost 2/64. 

I just gained a BIG sonic improvement by ditching the Saga pre-amp and Loki EQ completely, and going direct from the DO100 Pro to the Hafler amps. It has a remote control to adjust volume.

Edited April 27 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

it looks like this now

much less stuff everywhere!

listening to early Sinatra from the iPad through USB.

[ctsooner]

As I posted in an other thread, over the long haul sound with a good pre is better than a digital volume. U less you listen at full volume, it literally cuts the info you hear. It’s very noticeable in my system and any other digital volume system I’ve ever heard. 
 

There is no doubt that e

getting rid of any EQ is best. I’d try the pre alone for a week and then take it out and do a week with digital. 

[olds1959special]

5 hours ago, ctsooner said:

As I posted in an other thread, over the long haul sound with a good pre is better than a digital volume. U less you listen at full volume, it literally cuts the info you hear. It’s very noticeable in my system and any other digital volume system I’ve ever heard. 
 

There is no doubt that e

getting rid of any EQ is best. I’d try the pre alone for a week and then take it out and do a week with digital. 

All the preamp does in this case is add distortion. Why send the signal through more electronics than is necessary?

Edited April 30 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

9 hours ago, ctsooner said:

As I posted in an other thread, over the long haul sound with a good pre is better than a digital volume. U less you listen at full volume, it literally cuts the info you hear. It’s very noticeable in my system and any other digital volume system I’ve ever heard. 
 

There is no doubt that e

getting rid of any EQ is best. I’d try the pre alone for a week and then take it out and do a week with digital. 

I don't think this is true with more recent DAC's. I listen at around halfway (50). 

Edited April 30 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

I you got a good DAC, and like it, then that is great.

Another reason to have a pre is to select sources.
If one only has a DAC, the the main reasoning for a pre sort becomes a mute point

[olds1959special]

12 hours ago, Holmz said:

I you got a good DAC, and like it, then that is great.

Another reason to have a pre is to select sources.
If one only has a DAC, the the main reasoning for a pre sort becomes a mute point

Yes, I had to get rid of my tuner and input with an EQ to make this work. But, the sound is clear enough now I don’t need an EQ, and radio can be streamed from the internet.

[ctsooner]

I promise you that digital volume controls all cut the information. Even your top digital companies like MSB are only using analog for volume on their $100k plus DACs. Ayre implements digital volume better than most I’ve heard. That said, I wasn’t able to use theirs either. As I said, you need to do this evaluation over a week or two. I’ve not once heard a digital control that doesn’t sound better with a good preamp. Digital may sound ‘cleaner’ to some, but it’s missing enough information, that’s it’s obvious on every system I’ve heard. 
 

That’s just me and my ears. I’m happy that you like it better. It’s all good and why this. Part works. We all enjoy things differently, and can discuss safely.  Enjoying the music is all that matters. 

[Aaron]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:56 AM, ctsooner said:

As I posted in an other thread, over the long haul sound with a good pre is better than a digital volume. U less you listen at full volume, it literally cuts the info you hear. It’s very noticeable in my system and any other digital volume system I’ve ever heard. 

On 4/30/2024 at 3:00 PM, olds1959special said:

All the preamp does in this case is add distortion. Why send the signal through more electronics than is necessary?

 

Digital preamps can sound super clean and transparent, but they always lose dynamics and drive, even the pricey ones.  Yes, digital preamps throw away information--more or less depending on the volume level. As others have said, audition a good preamp in your system and hear for yourself.

[olds1959special]

20 hours ago, Aaron said:

 

Digital preamps can sound super clean and transparent, but they always lose dynamics and drive, even the pricey ones.  Yes, digital preamps throw away information--more or less depending on the volume level. As others have said, audition a good preamp in your system and hear for yourself.

I think I'm hearing an improvement in sound without the pre-amp. There are less cables needed, no circuitry in the signal path coming from the dac, and the sound is clean enough I don't need an EQ at all to watch TV and hear the dialogue. This means the sound is coming through with clarity. I'm not sure about missing dynamics and drive, but I will say the sound is on the smoother side in terms of presentation. I can't imagine bothering with my old pre-amp (Schiit Saga S) even though I could plug it in and audition it again since it's still here, I just don't think I will. I'm listening at around 40-55% of the volume with music, and considering the high SNR of this dac, the sound quality seems good enough for me.

Edited May 3 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

Okay, this discussion got me curious. I plugged the Schiit Saga S pre-amp back in and turned the DAC volume up to max. I'm using the active mode of the pre-amp and listening now. I guess I'll leave it for a few more days...

It sounds different. There is a little fuzziness that wasn't there before, and bass seems better. Overall, better? Not so sure...

Edited May 3 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

So far, to my ears:

With the pre-amp: better bass and fullness

without the pre-amp: better resolution and clarity

Edited May 3 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

This is an interesting subject! My pre-amp seems makes the sound more solid, with better bass, so I'm staying with this for now. 

[GdnrBob]

Even Paul McGowan felt adding a preamp benefitted sound reproduction. Though considering his speaker design, I would be more inclined to take his impressions with a grain of salt...

Bob

[ctsooner]

Guys, as I said each has its own extras. In the end, a good pre will sound better. The better the components, the better the sound obviously.  There is a reason it’s less fatiguing. Your brain isn’t trying to fill in the lost info. 

[GdnrBob]

On 5/2/2024 at 9:02 AM, ctsooner said:

I promise you that digital volume controls all cut the information.

This is an interesting point.

Are you saying that using the digital output at less than 100% will mean cutting the signal?

And, if using a preamp and outputting at 100% will eliminate this?

B

[TomicTime]

There are a variety of ways to implement a volume control in the digital domain… bit stripping in probably the most common and is obviously lossy… in other words data aka music is lost. Some dacs implement a basic analog volume control… some go to great lengths / expense… typically those designers also build…. great preamps….

listen is key.

 

[Holmz]

On 5/6/2024 at 9:48 PM, ctsooner said:

Guys, as I said each has its own extras. In the end, a good pre will sound better. The better the components, the better the sound obviously.  There is a reason it’s less fatiguing. Your brain isn’t trying to fill in the lost info. 

“Brain filling in lost info”, it what mine is doing all day long….

[ctsooner]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:24 PM, TomicTime said:

There are a variety of ways to implement a volume control in the digital domain… bit stripping in probably the most common and is obviously lossy… in other words data aka music is lost. Some dacs implement a basic analog volume control… some go to great lengths / expense… typically those designers also build…. great preamps….

listen is key.

 

Yes, it’s stripping. There is no way around this. It doesn’t matter how much money is thrown at this. 

[BKDad]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:24 PM, TomicTime said:

There are a variety of ways to implement a volume control in the digital domain… bit stripping in probably the most common and is obviously lossy… in other words data aka music is lost. Some dacs implement a basic analog volume control… some go to great lengths / expense… typically those designers also build…. great preamps…

With some DAC conversion architectures, it's possible to vary the level of the converter output itself by changing the Vref.  No bits are changed.  

Like most everything else in life, there's some limits to this.  But, I don't think many commercial audio DACs take this approach these days.

One of the values of a separate preamp is that it can act as a kind of barrier for common mode currents to the power amplifier.  That's often very impactful on sound quality and can actually be measured.  But, once again, that all depends on a lot.

[ctsooner]

I just use my ears, lol.  I've never heard a digital volume control sound as good as using a legit preamp.  Aurelic uses an analog control I believe.  I'd love to hear that one direct if I'm correct.

[BKDad]

Of course, all that software employed by engineers and mastering gurus in the process of recording uses what are essentially digital volume controls to adjust the mix.  Not to mention what the streaming services do.

One of the ironies about digital audio is that wayyyyyyyy back pretty much all that took place was that the master tape was played back into an A-D converter.  The level into the ADC was adjusted with an actual analog volume control to keep the level within range of the optimal point for the converter.  So, while the converters pretty much stunk, nobody fiddled around with the musical content or mix.

Then, digital editing became a thing.  In the mad rush to digitize every recording ever made, the studios or whoever sat some young engineers down in front of the console, plied them with cocaine to keep them working all night, and let them "improve" the music.

No wonder vinyl is so appealing.  Technically it may not be perfect, but at least it's authentic and not messed with very much, except by the originators of the music.