Question on speaker setup

[Paul S.]

So I was just wondering if you need a higher guage speaker wire if you are running a bi wire setup with model2se and a 2wq. From my understanding the 2wq kind of takes away the amp draw of the low end because the speakers have a 80hz filter and the 2wq is driving the low frequencies. The reason i ask is i am running an experiment with 14ga bi wire and am curious if there are any benefits to running 2 sets of 14 ga per polarity. I always find wire technology interesting so i am curious as to everyones thoughts 

[Boom Boom]

Hello Paul

Vandersteen recommends bi-wiring. I have always run my model 2s using bi-wired cables. I like using cables designed to address the signal to the individual pairs of cable inputs on the speakers. I believe the connections behind the speakers run to different circuit boards. That's why you have to use jumpers if you use only one pair of cables to each speaker from the amp.

Usually we upgrade speaker wires to get better sound. There are other considerations than gauge to consider as far as changing / improving sound. Best way to tell if you want to spend more money on speaker cables is to setup your system carefully and swap out the cables you want to compare. If you can borrow / take out loaners before purchasing, this is the best way to go. It will let you hear what you get for the money.

With cables you want the most complete energy (electricity) transfer from the amp to the 2se's and the sub. Changes in sound may depend on things like cable length, your terminations from cable to amp/speaker inputs. You may or may not hear any differences. If you are comparing fancier brands to standard lamp cord type cables, the materials used in the fancier brands may influence how accurately the signal transfers between amp and speakers. There are different technologies out there. I look for designs that preserve the signal timing and phase. Different manufacturers use different designs to achieve this. Their literature may talk about electrical properties such as resistance and capacitance and how they address these properties to preserve time and phase of the music in the electrical signal transfer. Depending on your background, you may or may not understand their explanations and designs.

Regardless of the tech, the most important item in the evaluation is using your ears to justify how much you want to spend for how much fancy.

Best of luck!

Cheers!😃

[Paul S.]

Thanks boom. I do bi wire religiously lol. I have quite a few higher end cables and enjoy their sound. This experiment is more of me understanding the magic and exploring the diy in me to see how differences in cable effect the sound. I often get bored (and curious) to experiment like this. Aside from dielectric and stranded vs solid core debates i am curious on how multiple strands of wire can change the sound especially in a system where the load of the amp is reduced by not having to drive those low frequencies as much as a traditional setup. Thanks for your insightful input

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, Paul S. said:

Thanks boom. I do bi wire religiously lol. I have quite a few higher end cables and enjoy their sound. This experiment is more of me understanding the magic and exploring the diy in me to see how differences in cable effect the sound. I often get bored (and curious) to experiment like this. Aside from dielectric and stranded vs solid core debates i am curious on how multiple strands of wire can change the sound especially in a system where the load of the amp is reduced by not having to drive those low frequencies as much as a traditional setup. Thanks for your insightful input

It should increase the capacitance, and the insulation’s dielectric constant is a multiplication factor to the geometric capacitance.

I am not sure I believe the polarisation and biasing descriptions… but I guess I must to some degree… as I got a bunch of cotton insulated cable to try to avoid that effect.

If the multiple strands are bundled inside of a insulator that is different than the strands being insulated and then bundled.
The later case, is of course needed when the strands are woven to decrease inductance… but then capacitance increases.

I will  be following your efforts here with interest.

[GdnrBob]

It would seem to me, that Mr. V. has done this testing already, since he believes bi-wired speakers sound better. I'd be interested in his take on this.

Bob

[Paul S.]

13 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

It would seem to me, that Mr. V. has done this testing already, since he believes bi-wired speakers sound better. I'd be interested in his take on this.

Bob

Yes im sure he has. But the test isnt to see if bi wire is better. I already have had single wire setups with jumpers that claim to be so fast bi wire isn't necessary. I believe bi wire is better. The curiosity in me is why a single condutor of a larger size provides less sonic benefits than multiple conductors equalling the same guage. And at what point do multiple conductors stop providing an improvement. If you use too many conductors will it eventually degrade the sound? This test is not to find the perfect sound but understand the mechanics behind it. If electrical theory alone is applied than a single 12 or 10 guage would be the answer but clearly running multiple guages of smaller wire adds sonic benefits. 

[TomicTime]

skin effect

[BKDad]

You might find this interesting:  https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/cables/2341/cable-esoterica-note-1st-cut

There has been at least professional paper presented on the subject of biwiring.  At the AES, no less.  (Objectivists take note!)  Same guy as above.  You can buy the paper from the AES, but there's an author provided summation here:  http://www.tmr-audio.com/pdf/jon_risch_biwiring.pdf

One other factor to consider is that most solid state power amplifiers use emitter (or source) followers at the outputs.  As with all amplifying devices that don't offer infinite bandwidth, at some frequency that emitter follower has voltage gain, which brings the potential for instability.  At minimum, this can cause signal peaking for certain input signals, depending on a whole bunch of factors.  The load presented to the emitter follower at this frequency definitely affects the system performance overall.  (Actually all three terminal amplifying devices exhibit this characteristic, no matter the circuit topology.  Sometimes there's so much else going on in the overall circuit that it gets masked or, worse, ignored.)

"They" don't discuss this much, do they?  So, here's some more techie type articles on that subject:

https://audioworkshop.org/downloads/AMPLIFIERS_OSCILLATION_BJT_CIRCUITS.pdf

https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/downloads/articles/Prevent-Emitter-Follower-Oscillation.pdf

Note that these two articles aren't specifically aimed toward people designing or using audio amplifiers.  They're more general coverage of the subject.  

Anyway, the point is that the combination of your loudspeakers as a load as connected to the amplifier by the speaker cables really does affect amplifier performance.  You won't see anything about this in a typical review featuring measurements made with a perfect load and the ideal situation presented by an Audio Precision test system.  (AP really does deliver what they claim to.  Best to really read and understand what they mean.)  So, maybe in a lot of cases it's not how the cables perform on their own, but how they make your amplifier perform.  If that makes sense.

One other (snarky) comment...  There's always a temptation to assume that overall feedback can and will completely mollify these high frequency effects in an amplifier.  Maybe, maybe not.  Yet another thing different about amplifiers that don't use overall loop feedback - the designers of those can't as easily paint over these little details, so they need to fully address them.  Or, suffer the consequences.

[Paul S.]

Wow great response! I will definitely look into this. Thanks so much 

[ctsooner]

It’s ironic to me that every Vandy dealer I’ve gone to has the better AQ cables on their Vandy systems, but will use others cables they sell in the other companies systems etc.  their job is to move equipment. Usually that means matching a system. I’ve tried other cables in my system when friend come over with stuff. 
 

Bi wire always has made a nice difference to my ears. The brand is just what you want to listen to long term. Some will elevate a specific part of the spectrum, but does it change time and phase?  Great question and only someone who has listened to cables to see how it will affect this one area would be able to give you an answer that’s worth a darn I would think. 

[Oregon]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:58 PM, BKDad said:

So, maybe in a lot of cases it's not how the cables perform on their own, but how they make your amplifier perform.  If that makes sense.

Yes, it does.