Optical Isolation or filter or something totally different????

[ctsooner]

I have used optical isolation for years at various times. I have never owned it for full time use as I'm lazy and I didn't want the mass of cables in my room.  Recently I have been told that many are buying the Gigafoil V4 for their one box optical iso device.  I know Ayre and others pay a lot of money (even wholesale it's expensive) for their built in optical isolation on their ethernet cards.  I ordered the Gigafoil (actually my wife did as it's my Father's Day gift), but I also reached out to an old buddy who imports the Waversa and Allnic lines.  Waversa offered three 'cleaning' devices for streaming, Spidf/AES and UBS connections.  It's passive, in a nice shiny case and small. Even their more expensive reference and above units are no larger than two Apple TV devices.  

He's sending one to me to review and I'll post my thoughts here.  Their entry level costs only 150 more than the Gigafoil V4 after it's shipped. I asked my wife to hold off on paying the invoice for the foil for now.  Waversa works with magnetism and a proprietary deal, but isn't optical.  They feel that optical isolation changes the timing/jitter and they decided against going that route when they weren't able to stop the jitter.  Others may have figured that out, but I have no idea and they don't either.  They do however share their measurements for all to read.

He shipped it out yesterday and it should be here by weeks end to play with. It does need time to settle into the system etc...  Wish me luck, lol. 

[GdnrBob]

This sounds very interesting. I would be interested in hearing what you hear.

Kudo's to Mrs. Sooner

Bob

[Holmz]

The Gold Coast place had an optical isolation deal with USB in and an orange fibre out.

(Seems like it was working, and I was intrigued.)

[ctsooner]

13 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

This sounds very interesting. I would be interested in hearing what you hear.

Kudo's to Mrs. Sooner

Bob

Bob, unless something physically happened last night while asleep, I think I'm still going by the pronoun MR Swartz....HAHAHAHAHAH. 😉.  Sorry, that was toooo funny.  thanks for the laugh buddy.

I've heard a TON of optical isolation devices as I started in with them when they first came out. It was just a mess of cabling and switches and LPS's etc...  It's why I still have an extra LPS laying around the house.  

I was told that optical has some timing issues and that is even worse than some EMI/RF that we are used to hearing.  I'm not sure on that, but I do know that Waversa offers three of these devices at various price points.  I just love the fact that it's a nice box that is the size of a cigarette package and passive. It's cheaper than the other isolation devices after you add a must needed top LPS in order for them to work their best.  My question is WHY do they need a great LPS if it's jsut converting optical back to electrical.  That means it's changing the signal somehow.  The Waversa tech is just identifying what's NOT part of the signal and then expunging it.  The higher up you go, the more 'stuff' it's able to scrub.  I do knwo their reference plus is actually 4 of their reference units in an aluminum milled box, like Ayre and others do with their reference products.  These things are solidly built for sure.  

Let's see how it sounds first.  I'm going to enlist my wife and daughter to give it a go and not tell them I put it in the system. Heck, they always seem to know when I change something anyways.

[BKDad]

I'll try to be brief in these random comments.

• Any streaming music you have arriving at your house has traveled more than 99.9999% of the way there over optical fiber.
• There's a big problem with mixed signal circuits.  Mixed signal being a combination of analog and digital.  It's easier to degrade the digital signal than most people would want you to believe.  It's even easier to degrade the conversion process than these same people are willing to admit.  The remedy is to clean up the various forms of digital noise that circulate throughout an audio system.  It's not entirely easy, though.  In the past I've posted some actual measurements I've made right here on this forum to show the problem.
• A big thing is to minimize the effects of what often are called ground loops.  It's not just a consideration for hum.  Here is an example of what a commercial product can do:  USB Spacelator
• Much of the common mode current degradation occurs because of a not so obvious connection through the AC mains and the associated safety ground.  This is why linear power supplies often help, or at least change the characteristics of the degradation.
• Ethernet cabling has inherent degradation mechanisms with regard to noise.  That's why there's all sorts of error correction mechanisms built into the Ethernet protocol.  Those mostly don't help with real time mixed signal applications.
• Wired Ethernet connections almost always have galvanic isolation built in.  It's needed to prevent the various power potentials in a facility from damaging equipment and electrocuting people.  Many of the fancy Ethernet fixer-upper devices are just variations of these repackaged in a nice box.  That does add a bit more isolation, but not a lot.  Breaking the loop in a system by using optical fiber, which isn't electrically conductive, is a very valid solution.  Many of these solutions only stir the pot though, because the supplies used to power the conversion boxes aren't adequately isolated and just change the size and characteristics of the ground loop.  That may or may be what you want.
• All the measurements you see in the various audio equipment reviews don't even consider the reviewed product's use in an actual system.  (With the exception of amplifier output impedance.)  The equipment is tested under close to ideal conditions that can't exist in a real system.
• An awful lot of audio equipment over the years has been "seasoned to taste" because either the designers didn't know about certain system considerations or chose to ignore them because, well, ask them why.  (This will sound gratuitous, but it's not.  One of the things I really like about Vandersteen audio products is that they all do what's possible at the price point and the current state of the art to address all the listening conditions.  For example, many companies just tell you that time and phase doesn't matter.  And, maybe it doesn't to a lot of people.  That's just choosing to ignore the obvious.)

But, in the end, everybody should try to find what sounds best to them.  If they're happy with a restored 1936 vintage RCA Model 9T table radio, that's a really great solution.  (Finding something to listen to can be a problem, though.)

[ctsooner]

43 minutes ago, BKDad said:

I'll try to be brief in these random comments.

• Any streaming music you have arriving at your house has traveled more than 99.9999% of the way there over optical fiber.
• There's a big problem with mixed signal circuits.  Mixed signal being a combination of analog and digital.  It's easier to degrade the digital signal than most people would want you to believe.  It's even easier to degrade the conversion process than these same people are willing to admit.  The remedy is to clean up the various forms of digital noise that circulate throughout an audio system.  It's not entirely easy, though.  In the past I've posted some actual measurements I've made right here on this forum to show the problem.
• A big thing is to minimize the effects of what often are called ground loops.  It's not just a consideration for hum.  Here is an example of what a commercial product can do:  USB Spacelator
• Much of the common mode current degradation occurs because of a not so obvious connection through the AC mains and the associated safety ground.  This is why linear power supplies often help, or at least change the characteristics of the degradation.
• Ethernet cabling has inherent degradation mechanisms with regard to noise.  That's why there's all sorts of error correction mechanisms built into the Ethernet protocol.  Those mostly don't help with real time mixed signal applications.
• Wired Ethernet connections almost always have galvanic isolation built in.  It's needed to prevent the various power potentials in a facility from damaging equipment and electrocuting people.  Many of the fancy Ethernet fixer-upper devices are just variations of these repackaged in a nice box.  That does add a bit more isolation, but not a lot.  Breaking the loop in a system by using optical fiber, which isn't electrically conductive, is a very valid solution.  Many of these solutions only stir the pot though, because the supplies used to power the conversion boxes aren't adequately isolated and just change the size and characteristics of the ground loop.  That may or may be what you want.
• All the measurements you see in the various audio equipment reviews don't even consider the reviewed product's use in an actual system.  (With the exception of amplifier output impedance.)  The equipment is tested under close to ideal conditions that can't exist in a real system.
• An awful lot of audio equipment over the years has been "seasoned to taste" because either the designers didn't know about certain system considerations or chose to ignore them because, well, ask them why.  (This will sound gratuitous, but it's not.  One of the things I really like about Vandersteen audio products is that they all do what's possible at the price point and the current state of the art to address all the listening conditions.  For example, many companies just tell you that time and phase doesn't matter.  And, maybe it doesn't to a lot of people.  That's just choosing to ignore the obvious.)

But, in the end, everybody should try to find what sounds best to them.  If they're happy with a restored 1936 vintage RCA Model 9T table radio, that's a really great solution.  (Finding something to listen to can be a problem, though.)

Wow, that's an easy read for those of us who aren't engineers. Thanks as usual BK.  Very much appreciated.  I have been watching this USB Spacelator for a few weeks now.  It's so tempting to buy one as I trust GR so much. I love his gear and he keeps costs at a very fair market value like Richard does.  I was going to have my wife buy me the Gigafoil for Father's Day,  but when I got a chance to get the Waversa EXT, I decided to go that route.  I have heard the MSB with their USB isolation deal and I've heard it without.   I can easily say it's a must purchase if you ever get an MSB DAC (to my ears. at least).   

Has anyone on the board known anyone who uses the Wavelength devices (either the Ethernet or USB one)?  There are often a few ways to skin a ..... (fill in the blank).  thanks for sharing.

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Wow…

…

.  I was going to have my wife buy me the Gigafoil for Father's Day,

…

Kudos to Mrs. Pete.🫣

[BKDad]

4 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Has anyone on the board known anyone who uses the Wavelength devices (either the Ethernet or USB one)?  There are often a few ways to skin a ..... (fill in the blank).  thanks for sharing.

I own and use a USB Spacelator.  A friend of mine does as well.

I also built a similar device of my own design.  Both my friend and I agree that the Wavelength product is better.  If no isolation at all is a 1 on an arbitrary scale, my design is maybe a 4 and the Spacelator is a 5. 

[Holmz]

Along with ^the rating^, one needs the tasting notes:
- raspberry
- chocolate

[BKDad]

That was all you’ll get out of me.

[Holmz]

12 hours ago, BKDad said:

That was all you’ll get out of me.

The rating reminded me of wine…
Sometimes the Haus-Boss gives a 4-1/2, some times a 9 and sometimes a 96 or 97.
I always have to assume the “out of” part.

I assumed your’s was 4/5 ?

Good info on the Spacelator if I need such a device in the future.
(I probably do, or will need it…)

[BKDad]

No idea about wine.  I don't drink alcohol - personal choice, not any moral stance or anything like that - so I'm not familiar with wine reviews.

All these ratings are arbitrary.  I just wanted to give an indication of the relative merits of the devices.  

I'll bet that if you let a zillion audiophiles try these electrical isolation devices, a very large portion would say that it's snake oil, without even giving a listen.  A large portion would prefer the colored sound caused by common mode currents.  The rest might like it, at least to some degree.  

Hey - there's been discussions on this forum about the merits of various squishy isolation devices placed beneath Vandersteen speakers.  Or, any loudspeaker for that matter.  For the life of me, I can't rationalize how these ever would bring more accuracy to any speaker.  Having your speaker flop around, changing its relative placement to the listener and to the room, for some segment of the musical spectrum cannot possibly be more accurate.  But, it certainly could add some other distortion that might sound pleasing to some or mask something worse inherent to the speaker itself.  As I said, everybody is allowed to season to taste.  Same here.

[ctsooner]

Thanks for the share BK.  Based on what you posted, I'm going to try and purchase one of those today.  Waversa also makes a similar device for USB connections.  Maybe I'll see if I can get a hold of that also and do a shootout. As you said, these devices are all tweaks and make a small, but positive difference.  Since digital is my only source, it just makes sense that I get the most out of it within reason (ie money). 

[BKDad]

Actually, some of the devices make genuine obvious improvements.  Others, maybe not so much.

I'll scale it for you this way:  Installing the USB Spacelator made about as much difference in sound quality as adding granite supports under our Quatro CTs did.  Whether you consider that a lot or a little is up to you.

To be fair, in order to get full value you also need good USB cables.  The one between the Spacelator or any other isolation device and the DAC seems to be most critical.  That makes sense, if you think about it.  I use a Curious Evolved USB cable there - the short "Regen" version.  I suggested that to my friend who also has a Speculator and he agrees that it's a vast improvement over the other cables he has available.

I even am using the original Curious cable between this iMac and my own isolator feeding an AQ Dragonfly Cobalt.  That combination really overachieves.  At least according to the two people who use this computer.

[BKDad]

That should obviously be Spacelator not Speculator.  Spell check bobble, but I should've proofread more carefully.  My bad.

[ctsooner]

I’m also looking at the Waversa EXT for usb. They include the short, shielded connection cable with the device and it’s still passive. Lots of choices and I hope to get some in to figure it out. 
 

I never expect life changing changes when using teaks. I love how you put it about the granite under the speakers. That’s all I’m expecting. 

[BKDad]

Well, don't blame me if you don't like it!  😐  

I really hate even suggesting to people how to spend their own money.

[GdnrBob]

All this talk got me curious, and I went and bought a Spacelator today. 

@ctsooner, maybe we can have a shoot out?

bob

[BKDad]

4 hours ago, ctsooner said:

I never expect life changing changes when using teaks. I love how you put it about the granite under the speakers. That’s all I’m expecting. 

I'm going to amend my earlier comment about not suggesting to people how to spend their money.

If you do choose to purchase a Curious USB cable. I'd suggest paying the extra for the special more better shipping.  The last cable I bought from them sat in limbo/customs for a few weeks.

[ctsooner]

It's all good BK.  I never make buying decisions based on what folks say.  It may be a starting place, but if I like what the Waversa does, I'm getting their USB unit to start with as I'll already have an idea of what it does for ethernet.  🙂. 

[BKDad]

I think that Ethernet has real challenges when it comes to audio.  Really, whatever you choose to call it, you need a computer of some sort at the device end to make it work.  There’s much more going on with Ethernet than with SPDIF or USB.  That means that you need to isolate the Ethernet computer from the audio system.

Second, if you use any of the higher speed types of Ethernet cabling, there’s the inevitable crosstalk between channels that has to be dealt with.  Single optical fiber (per direction) gets around that one, but as I said, then you need to isolate that device from the power.

At the performance levels that all the denizens of this forum seek, those are all important considerations.  It’s easy enough to slather on the audio steak sauce to get something you find pleasing, but that might not be satisfying in the longer term.  Or, it could be!  Up to you - no wrong answer.

[ctsooner]

Completely agree!  That's why the Waversa approach is so intriguing. They have measurements that back up their claims etc...  They said it works for both things you are mentioning and they the device works for all the inputs, you just have to order the way you need it.  SPIDF / AES is still possibly the best connection, but again, it's always implementation.  I can't wait for the EXT to get here and burned in (at least 50 hours to settle in as it works with a magnetic field etc...).  I like the fact it doesn't switch the signal from electrical to optical and then back as there are potential timing errors etc...  Wish it was here today as I finally have the house alone and will have music on all day, lol. 

[bkeske]

You guys are much more into Digital than I, but I did want to try and improve my streaming SQ, and was recommended this setup between my router and streamer before going to the DAC. Cost about $80, and it did bump the SQ nicely. Still not quite as good as streaming from my hard drive or playing CD’s through my transport, but better in many ways. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by bkeske

[ctsooner]

That's a basic optical converter Bruce.  Yes, they most often make a nice little difference and what we are discussing here.  What I like about the Waversa implementation is that it's magnetic.  I pray it gets here this week and I'm really intrigued. to see if it can clean up the interference without changing the signal and introducing timing errors.   I'm also going to try and get the EXT USB unit in also.

[ctsooner]

The Ethernet EXT is in and burning in. So far it’s a huge upgrade over all the optical isolation devices I’ve heard in my home. It’s still getting better as it builds up its magnetic field. I hear zero timing issues. I have the ability to chose three different jitter settings on my server.  A child will tell you the differences as it’s not close. This device lowers the noise floor in a big way and allows detail I’ve yet to hear and it’s much more relaxing to listen. It’s NOT analog,  it it takes the best of both worlds.  I literally had some goosebumps yesterday and I had to be asked when I’d have dinner ready. Listened all afternoon. Im homing to get his top two unit in to hear the difference between them all. Different technologies in each of them. 
 

I’d love to get Rutan up here to help dial in the speakers a bit better and of audition with me.   It’s always good to have extra ears.  So far, I’m getting this unit at a minimum over Gigafoil and the others. Hope to get a few hours of listening in this afternoon. Putting on some well recorded high res stuff. So easy to hear the extra detail that high res gives you. 
 

Relaxing is a word I rarely use with digital.