Brand new listening room dimensions

[aubbrin570]

Hello, I am in a strange scenario that the owner's manual does not cover on my model 2 sig iii's.  Although it gives great advice on how to set them up based on your room size, it does not say what the ideal room is.  I am blessed to have the ability to build a listening room, in any length, width, and height that I want, and plan to do so.  What are the perfect room dimensions?  I have found on a room mode calculator(amroc), that 15'lx12'wx9'h gives great sound pressure levels with minimum acoustic problems for any speaker.  What about the model 2 sig iii's that I have?  Is that room too small/too big? Wondering if RV has ever found a room ratio that works best over the years and I just haven't found that post/topic?   I plan to have carpet on a slab, drywall on walls and ceiling, and of course a door but no windows.  I will treat the room with acoustic treatments that I already have as needed, and the room will only have a single chair, speakers, and electronics rack. Nothing else.  Purpose built stereo room.  I plan to insulate the walls and ceiling to aid in sound deadening(and insulate) 

I have currently a 11x17x7.5' vaulted ceiling room which sounds great treated, but I need that room for a bedroom, so I'm building a room.    I have tried another room in my house which is close to a cube size 9x9.2x9' and I could not get any good sound from there.

Again, these speakers are designed to work anywhere generally using the methods in the book, but what if you REALLY have a blank slate- what would you do??  Advise is appreciated.

 

[ctsooner]

Richard and some others have answered this in a few threads over the years. I'm sure others will post here and give you a great idea of the proper ratio's.  I look forward to this one. I know there always used to be a debate on double thickness drywall using specific adhesives etc...  Type of ceiling?  Popcorn or flat or possibly acoustic panels up there for slap echo etc...  This could turn into a great thread. thanks for the post.

[TomicTime]

You can search on golden ratio dimensions….. a cube is the worst… just behind that is a sterile no furnishings dedicated audiophile room w no brick a brack to aid in a mix of random and chaotic diffusion…. 

IF i was doing it, concrete slab, engineered hardwood floor glued down, area rugs in natural fibers, double drywall w green glue, mass loaded vinyl on at minimum adjacent house walls or if you have outside noise, paint the walls w sand mixed in, a dedicated 20 A line with a seperate 15 A line for the digital side, monoblocks on floor or better HRS grade isolation w short speaker wires, XLR run to component rack on the side…no dimmers, no led …if possible….

[Richard Vandersteen]

There is a ratio favorable to minimizing room standing waves 1 X 1.618 X 2.618.  Using Green Glue between two layers of 1/2 inch sheetrock for the walls, first layer vertical and top layer the normal horizontal, and 5/8-inch sheet rock for the ceiling helps damp the sound of the sheet rock.  Hand trowelling a texture pattern with Sheet Rock Mud with a little sand in it helps control the high frequency slap echo.  Concrete floor covered with a natural fiber (wool) carpet, record/CD racks, and furniture is also important.   Once all this is finished use diffusion at first reflection points moderately and STOP when you get a good balance between room sound and direct speaker sound.   RV

[aubbrin570]

1 minute ago, TomicTime said:

You can search on golden ratio dimensions….. a cube is the worst… just behind that is a sterile no furnishings dedicated audiophile room w no brick a brack to aid in a mix of random and chaotic diffusion…. 

IF i was doing it, concrete slab, engineered hardwood floor glued down, area rugs in natural fibers, double drywall w green glue, mass loaded vinyl on at minimum adjacent house walls or if you have outside noise, paint the walls w sand mixed in, a dedicated 20 A line with a seperate 15 A line for the digital side, monoblocks on floor or better HRS grade isolation w short speaker wires, XLR run to component rack on the side…no dimmers, no led …if possible….

I agree on the cube being bad.  I will have a no furnished dedicated room, however I have a lot of absorption panels, diffusion panels, and bass traps with diffusers. these are going on every surface except the floor.   I had to pick up alot from GIK in order to make my current room sing.  They do a great job imo.  I have heard of the green glue trick good idea.  I have a dedicated line for power- forgot to mention. Using 12 gauge romex 20a circuit.  I like my dimmer and led's but didn't realize that was bad?

[Richard Vandersteen]

Be careful with room treatments as they can kill the emotion.  We humans want to know the room has boundaries.  Use what you need very methodically and store the remainder.  RV

[aubbrin570]

1 minute ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

There is a ratio favorable to minimizing room standing waves 1 X 1.618 X 2.618.  Using Green Glue between two layers of 1/2 inch sheetrock for the walls, first layer vertical and top layer the normal horizontal, and 5/8-inch sheet rock for the ceiling helps damp the sound of the sheet rock.  Hand trowelling a texture pattern with Sheet Rock Mud with a little sand in it helps control the high frequency slap echo.  Concrete floor covered with a natural fiber (wool) carpet, record/CD racks, and furniture is also important.   Once all this is finished use diffusion at first reflection points moderately and STOP when you get a good balance between room sound and direct speaker sound.   RV

Thank you for that RV.   Until that response I was planning on re using my panels if needed but I currently have ABSORPTION in the first and second reflection points. And this includes the ceiling too. No doubt this could be wrong and why I'm here asking.   The plan was to (IF needed) in the new room, keep going, adding panel by panel until it reacts/balances.   I have gone too far with absorption in the past and sounded dead so amen to stopping at a good balance.  Just to clarify, you are recommending only do scatter/diffusers and no absorption? and on first reflection points on side walls?  or diffuse the first reflection on ALL walls? what about the ceiling?  (Thinking maybe the textrured ceiling you recommended is all that's needed to diffuse)?  I currently have been using absorption on 1st and 2nd reflections on the side and ceiling reflections and diffusers on front wall and back wall's first reflections. Worked in my old room but I understand this may act different- this is the advice I need.  

Using your ratio, I get 8'h x 12.95'w x 20.95'l.  According to Amroc, this ratio does limit the modes especially in the low frequency which is great.    

40 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Be careful with room treatments as they can kill the emotion.  We humans want to know the room has boundaries.  Use what you need very methodically and store the remainder.  RV

Thank you sir.  Makes total sense. This answers most of my questions.  But do you mean limit treatments in general or are you generally against absorption and more for scatter/diffuse?

Just to clarify, adding furniture and cd cases/record cases IS another form of diffuser correct?  And lastly, I'm under the understanding that a good room will not need much treatment.  I feel treatment possibly only exists to fix a room with bad dimensions(like my old room) or possibly a room that lacks natural treatment like furniture, curtains etc(also like my old room)? 

Just my theory..

Thanks for all responses from everyone so far on this

[Richard Vandersteen]

14 minutes ago, aubbrin570 said:

Thank you for that RV.   Until that response I was planning on re using my panels if needed but I currently have ABSORPTION in the first and second reflection points. And this includes the ceiling too. No doubt this could be wrong and why I'm here asking.   The plan was to (IF needed) in the new room, keep going, adding panel by panel until it reacts/balances.   I have gone too far with absorption in the past and sounded dead so amen to stopping at a good balance.  Just to clarify, you are recommending only do scatter/diffusers and no absorption? and on first reflection points on side walls?  or diffuse the first reflection on ALL walls? what about the ceiling?  (Thinking maybe the textrured ceiling you recommended is all that's needed to diffuse)?  I currently have been using absorption on 1st and 2nd reflections on the side and ceiling reflections and diffusers on front wall and back wall's first reflections. Worked in my old room but I understand this may act different- this is the advice I need.  

Using your ratio, I get 8'h x 12.95'w x 20.95'l.  According to Amroc, this ratio does limit the modes especially in the low frequency which is great.    

Thank you sir.  Makes total sense. This answers most of my questions.  But do you mean limit treatments in general or are you generally against absorption and more for scatter/diffuse?

Just to clarify, adding furniture and cd cases/record cases IS another form of diffuser correct?  And lastly, I'm under the understanding that a good room will not need much treatment.  I feel treatment possibly only exists to fix a room with bad dimensions(like my old room) or possibly a room that lacks natural treatment like furniture, curtains etc(also like my old room)? 

Just my theory..

Thanks for all responses from everyone so far on this

You are in the enviable position of already owning both so now it's a matter of trying both of them and discover what you like.  I am a believer in carefully trying what works without the hinderance of other people's opinion and making it happen for you.  Putting a large speaker (goes low in frequency) in a small room can get the speakers too close to the boundaries generally requiring more room treatment.  RV

[Oregon]

3 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

There is a ratio favorable to minimizing room standing waves 1 X 1.618 X 2.618.  Using Green Glue between two layers of 1/2 inch sheetrock for the walls, first layer vertical and top layer the normal horizontal, and 5/8-inch sheet rock for the ceiling helps damp the sound of the sheet rock.  Hand trowelling a texture pattern with Sheet Rock Mud with a little sand in it helps control the high frequency slap echo.  Concrete floor covered with a natural fiber (wool) carpet, record/CD racks, and furniture is also important.   Once all this is finished use diffusion at first reflection points moderately and STOP when you get a good balance between room sound and direct speaker sound.   RV

Good to know. Thanks.

[ctsooner]

Threads like this are the best.  Brenda is having us look at houses and I dont' want to move into the basement as they are all under 8' high ceilings and use those fiberglass panels that rattle.  I'll have to make sure my system can  be set up in a living or family room instead.  I know that Rick in Colorado Springs (Vandersteen dealer for those who don't know him) is set up in his ranch and his rooms all sound good. Even his small bedroom with larger speakers sound decent considering.  His ranch style of very open on the main floor. He has the full System 9 set up and it was nirvana for me on vinyl.  

I'm learning a ton from you guys on this thread though.  Making me look at the houses differently to make sure I can do what I need to do. Thanks

[aubbrin570]

If you are patient enough, you will get what you want. Let Brenda pick the house, then she will let you pick a room….😉

[ctsooner]

If I let her pick the house, there won't be any room for my workout equipment or my audio gear, lol.   She respects my hobby as I respect her stuff.  Neither of us take advantage of the other though as I do care about WAF when it comes to decorating the room.  That's why I never got 'room conditioners'.  I will however do what's needed when we eventually move to make sure the room sounds good.  I just may not be able to get my dedicated 20A and 15A lines (for amps and digital).  Then I'll really find out how good my Niagara 3000 is. 😉 

[aubbrin570]

I have been a big fan of my power regenerator.  I have a single dedicated 20a line but then I have the power plant which regenerates power with its internal amp, and has an outlet for high current(amps) and 5 other high quality outlets(sources)  It does a great job.  Even my dedicated line "swings' up and down as it is connected to power coming from outside in the end.  This regenerator sort of isolates my system from the rest of the house and outside power.  I have measured the dedicated line and have seen live voltage down at 112v at times when the demand is high, and as high as 129v who knows why(this is why we have light bulbs blowing out after 3-4 months sometimes). During a spike it could be higher.  The regenerator produces power to bring current up to 120v if low, and if its too high, it dumps power with heat.  With this in the chain, its always reading 120.0 v. I even tested with the multimeter and have say 124v at the wall and 120.0v at the back of the plant.  Before getting this unit, I had days I thought my system sounded great and other days it sounded "ok".  Thought it was just me and allergies etc but I  believe it was my ears noticing the power swings- who knows.  Ever since I added this in the chain, it is consistently the same sound. just my experience..

As of now, I'm considering running a 20a circuit via 12 guage to my rig, a 15a normal line for lights, and another 15a for 2 outlets for the vacuum.