Angling VLR's

[GdnrBob]

My home office is tight for space. So, I have placed the VLR's near the upper corners of my room (10x10, yeah, I know. and There is a lot of stuff to absorb/reflect/diffuse).

To be honest, I quite like the sound that comes from them.- I can listen upstairs and not feel the need to turn on the main system(Treo's).

 

Now, to my question, as the speakers are near the ceiling, I have them angled downward and canted toward my listening position (which is nearer to the right side, actually very close to the right).

So, if I am angling them inward/downward, am I loosing time/phase coherency?

John Rutan said I should point them forwards(which should address one part of the problem of phase/time coherency-up/down), but I feel I lose a lot of the upper frequencies- which I hear when I point them more towards me.

I am considering pointing them downwards (facing forward), but will need to change speaker mounts (I'll need to drill into the cabinet to support them).  I would imagine time and phase would be preserved as long as I don't tilt them one way or another, but wanted to ask beforehand, and ,as I am not in the center position and I don't have a balance on my preamp, I wonder if it will be worth it? And, I hate to drill my speakers, if I can avoid it.

 

 

[Holmz]

9 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

My home office is tight for space. So, I have placed the VLR's near the upper corners of my room (10x10, yeah, I know. and There is a lot of stuff to absorb/reflect/diffuse).

To be honest, I quite like the sound that comes from them.- I can listen upstairs and not feel the need to turn on the main system(Treo's).

 

Now, to my question, as the speakers are near the ceiling, I have them angled downward and canted toward my listening position (which is nearer to the right side, actually very close to the right).

So, if I am angling them inward/downward, am I loosing time/phase coherency?

No

9 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

John Rutan said I should point them forwards(which should address one part of the problem of phase/time coherency-up/down), but I feel I lose a lot of the upper frequencies- which I hear when I point them more towards me.

If pointing them at you is better (toed in), then celebrate it

 

9 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

I am considering pointing them downwards (facing forward), but will need to change speaker mounts (I'll need to drill into the cabinet to support them).  I would imagine time and phase would be preserved as long as I don't tilt them one way or another, but wanted to ask beforehand, and ,as I am not in the center position and I don't have a balance on my preamp, I wonder if it will be worth it? And, I hate to drill my speakers, if I can avoid it.

The time and phase is built into the speaker.
And keeping the distances equal is always good,

Can you use tape, rope, or something else to test out the aiming hypothesis?

[GdnrBob]

Well I only ask as Googling this,  I have found that by angling speakers, you can alter the relative time/phase relationship between the tweeter and woofer. (Hence, probably, the reason the floorstanders are set up with a specific rake/angle).

I forgot to add, is placing the VLR's horizontally acceptable for proper sound reproduction?

Bob

 

[Holmz]

58 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

Well I only ask as Googling this,  I have found that by angling speakers, you can alter the relative time/phase relationship between the tweeter and woofer. (Hence, probably, the reason the floorstanders are set up with a specific rake/angle).

That is also  wrapped up in the directivity and associated directivity index.
There is generally a lobe and null created (comb) by two drivers that are offset.

On axis all is good though, so you want them toed in so that the faces are normal to the vector towards you.

(There is a bunch of math and videos, which are probably not needed here)

Unless you like math - I would suggest you just listen and try it.
Maybe put them on the edge of a table and try different rotations.
Rotated 90 degrees then should be  super sensitive to left/right position, but very accepting of vertical height changes in the seating.

The laser and rake setup quite, we our fixed upright back length, sort of makes the height repeatable on a floor stander.
And the pattern is generally wider in the horizontal.

Rotating the speakers rotates the pattern, and I think it would be more prone to alignment issues.
But try it and see.

[Stringreen]

I pointed my 5'a's directly ahead as the directions say....then rotated them slowly to point in front of me .  There is a large difference doing this.....pointed ahead the sound is one dimensional..flat....as I turn them in the soundsate opens up until eventually it turned mono even with the 2 speakers. Find. what you like

[Holmz]

20 minutes ago, Stringreen said:

I pointed my 5'a's directly ahead as the directions say....then rotated them slowly to point in front of me .  There is a large difference doing this.....pointed ahead the sound is one dimensional..flat....as I turn them in the soundsate opens up until eventually it turned mono even with the 2 speakers. Find. what you like

I think Bob was asking it like what happened if the 5As were laid on their sides like they were sleeping?

In that case you want want them toed in to point directly at the listener. And I think that applies to the VLRs???
 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Holmz

[nrenter]

Well…

The VLRs have a coaxial driver arrangement (meaning the tweeter sits in the middle of the woofer). As along as you’re in the radiation patters of the drivers (simply put, the speakers are pointed toward your listening position) the resulting wave will be time and phase aligned*. It does not matter how this speaker is rotated. 

* I am assuming the VLR is a time and phase aligned speaker. I have not seen an impulse response graph that confirms the time and phase alignment of the VLR. 

[nrenter]

3 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

Well I only ask as Googling this,  I have found that by angling speakers, you can alter the relative time/phase relationship between the tweeter and woofer. (Hence, probably, the reason the floorstanders are set up with a specific rake/angle).

Yeah, that’s because when you tilt a (non-coaxial) speaker backwards, you are physically moving the top driver (usually the tweeter) relative to the drivers that are placed beneath it, changing the time alignment of the drivers. 
 

When you rotate the speakers left or right, the relative distance from each of the drivers to the listening position remains the same. 
 

In summary, tilt back is specific for time alignment. Toe-in to taste. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

The VLR must not be pointed at the listener!  When the listener is on axis the tweeter is baffled at some frequencies by the Mid/Woofer which will act as a Ring radiator causing cancelations at some frequencies (not good).  Optimum listening is 15 to 30 degrees off axis anywhere globally.  If the VLR is positioned so that the listener is off axis more than 20 degrees angling them a bit will give better high frequency response.  This is true of our center channels and on wall speakers as they also use a coax driver.  RV

[nrenter]

Wowsa…interesting. I stand corrected. 

[Holmz]

Ahh💡

[GdnrBob]

Thanks Mr. V.!

[ctsooner]

This is why I always send folks to ask their questions on this platform and not Facebook or AG. It’s the only way to get answers from Richard. We pay for these speakers and want the most out of them. Many folks just don’t care and want to play like they do with other brands and that’s fine too. To each their own. I learned years ago not to recreate something that was already working g properly lol. JMHO