Audiogon Feedback System is not honest

[JonM]

I browse and buy from Audiogon all the time.  It's a fun place to browse.  "Looking is finding" as some have said.

I will try to spare the details of the transaction, because that's not the point of my post.  I recently bought a component for my C system.  Not terribly expensive.  This piece comes in black ash finish and also higher-cost gloss black finish and the seller had both of them.  Seller has 100% positive reviews for the last ~4 years and many transactions.  I bought the gloss black one.  Seller sent me the lower cost black ash one, with a significant blemish.  Not the "as-new" gloss black in the listing I paid from.  This wasn't actually a huge deal for me, so I wrote to seller and suggested a way forward.  No response.  After a week, I left him negative feedback that was honest and measured.  My feedback was "Ordered gloss black, got black ash.  Sellers seems like a nice guy but we could not work it out".  Then the seller responds, super angry, and leaves me horrible feedback as retaliation.  No explanation of why it took a week to respond; my guess is he was going to move on from the transaction altogether had it not been for the negative feedback.

Here is the point of my post: 

I wasn't super happy about the negative feedback against me because I didn't think it was justified.  I was tempted to click the "dispute feedback" button but I don't know what that button does, so I wrote to Audiogon:  

Me:   Hi. I am curious if you can advise if I should dispute feedback I received from a seller.  How does disputing negative feedback work?  Do the words I write in the dispute box show up in my feedback like an explanation?  Or, when I dispute a transaction, does that trigger someone at Audiogon to review a transaction and all the interaction between a seller and a buyer?

Audiogon:  It seems to be a misunderstanding from what I can tell.  What if I remove the feedback he left you and the one you left him?

Me:  Removing the feedback doesn’t seem right. I think it’s hard to believe this seller has 100% positive feedback.  Other buyers should know about this guy. I almost think he is counting on my disputing his retaliation feedback so it will all go away.  I was mostly curious about the process. I did click the “dispute feedback” button and I entered my explanation there. 

Then Audiogon proceeds to remove the negative feedback against me and against the seller.  Like it never happened.  This seller has lots of things for sale on Audiogon.  I am sure they collect lots of fees from him.  I am thinking that Audiogon tries to supress as much negative feedback as they can to keep sellers happy.  That doesn't seem right.

I think Audiogon is a good place and I think the majority of sellers and buyers and transactions are great.  But they aren't all great and I am not sure the feedback and rating system is trustworthy.

[TomicTime]

Jon - Yep….it’s the same on Discogs…my approach has been lucky…i try to establish a connection w seller / buyer in some fashion thru PM and better phone.  So far so good. 

Jim

[JonM]

I don't buy a lot of eBay, but apparently sellers cannot give negative feedback to buyers, because they had trouble with retaliation too.

[GdnrBob]

9 hours ago, JonM said:

I am thinking that Audiogon tries to supress as much negative feedback as they can to keep sellers happy. 

That does seem plausible. Why not post a thread on Audiogon, just as you have done here?

At worst, they will delete it. At best, you might have other members contact you with similar situations.

And, if the latter, then changes would be in order. 

You gave the seller a chance to reply or make things better. That he didn't reply and proceeded to give a bad feedback shows a poor attitude.

FWIW, all my experiences on Audiogon have been positive. Though I tend to buy from individuals rather than professional sellers.

B

[JonM]

GdnrBob, great feedback.

I don’t post at Audiogon forums and I didn’t think I should start with this one.   But that is the right venue for it.  A quick google search found a thread there from a few years ago and this same seller did the same “negative feedback delete” trick with another buyer.  So there are at least 2 cases where the negatives just get suppressed.  

This was a “verified dealer” which is a lot different than individuals like us. I have had nothing but good luck peer-to-peer at Audiogon, both buying and selling. 

[ctsooner]

I have had a couple of negative experiences with buys and a seller. The seller sells the used gear and trade in stuff from a highly reputable dealer who I e sent a ton of folks to over the years. It was an older model of the Rhea preamp. I wasn’t happy when I saw how old it was, but I also wasn’t able to see if it worked as promised, as I didn’t have a TT yet. That took a month. It was DOA. I sent it to Jim and Co and they installed a brand new power supply and upgraded everything and made it like new. I was blessed they did that. I called the guy out on it and found out he screwed over others. 
 

I will sell there, but not purchase anymore. 

[Holmz]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:54 AM, JonM said:

GdnrBob, great feedback.

I don’t post at Audiogon forums and I didn’t think I should start with this one.   But that is the right venue for it.  A quick google search found a thread there from a few years ago and this same seller did the same “negative feedback delete” trick with another buyer.  So there are at least 2 cases where the negatives just get suppressed.  

This was a “verified dealer” which is a lot different than individuals like us. I have had nothing but good luck peer-to-peer at Audiogon, both buying and selling. 

Audiogon is a bit of “the Wild West” and a lot of threads can have a school yard behavior standard, that would keep a sociologist employed to retirement.
Some people get kicked off, and at least one, whose posts I always enjoyed.

But it is easier to get a sense of things with a few fora as the perspective are not all laser coherent.

[Richard Vandersteen]

14 hours ago, Holmz said:

Audiogon is a bit of “the Wild West” and a lot of threads can have a school yard behavior standard, that would keep a sociologist employed to retirement.
Some people get kicked off, and at least one, whose posts I always enjoyed.

But it is easier to get a sense of things with a few fora as the perspective are not all laser coherent.

Buying Previously Owned gear of all kinds has always been the art of saving some bucks for increased risk!  It will never change.  RV

[GdnrBob]

7 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Buying Previously Owned gear of all kinds has always been the art of saving some bucks for increased risk!  It will never change.  RV

Though I have to say the playing field has been leveled with the internet. Instead of a reseller making the prices, the buyers do. -With HifiShark allowing one to see what the going price is.

 

Perhaps some additional risk, but when I remember how little I got from Stereo Exchange for my equipment, versus how much they sold it for, it is a risk I am willing to take.

Also, 99% of the sellers (not the professional resellers), have been  open, honest and friendly- even allowing me to audition the equipment in their homes, before I bought it.

B

[ctsooner]

I’ve purchased gear that was flat out broken. I sold a DAC to a guy who texted me for three days telling me how great it sounded and then got a nasty email saying he fried it and it was my fault. The designer told him what happened and it was t my fault. He threatened legal action against me and I just gave half the cost of rebuilding it. I felt screwed, but I try to do the right thing. When pics came back, after I paid, he was using a class A design in an enclosed shelf space. I was and am still upset over the threat even though he had no case. 
 

I try to only sell to people I know. That way if it’s not what I promise, they can work it out with me nicely. Bob know that I refused to let him leave my house with the Treo’s, unless his listened to them first lol. That’s how we met. 

[JonM]

ctsooner, that is awful.  So sorry.

On the seller's side, with all the fees, risks and hassles of shipping, I have elected to just keep stuff.  My previous pieces are low-fi or home theater, not at the level I am at now.  I will say it is super-luxurious to have a library of spare parts, components and cables.  So far I have had no grief from wife who is a packrat herself.

[Holmz]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

ctsooner, that is awful.  So sorry..
...

I am assuming you’re referring to the DAC, and the threat of legal action?
(and not the Treo part?) 

My blood started to boil reading that story.

[ctsooner]

Guys, I still have PTSD from it.  It just soured me from dealing with folks I don't know.  I'm like Jim and that I've always tried to build a quick relationship by being honest etc... (just ask Bob as that's how we became good friends).  When I get around to actually posting the sale of my Hurricane power cords and the Fire interconnect, I'll have no problem shipping since it's hard to hurt  wire adn connectors, especially when packaged in their original boxes.  I have an older Onix integrated amp I never use and would love to sell for a couple of hundred, but have resisted since I don't have an extra system to see if it works.  Like many, I have a lot of older electronics gear that is just sitting in storage (original brownish color cases of NAD gear, including a tape deck).  I will need to get rid of some of this gear soon though as I'm going to finally clean up the basement! 

[BKDad]

Sorry for intruding here...

For me, I have stuff that is still really good and a lot of people probably would find a good use for it.  Like all those USB cables I'm not using.  But, it's not that easy to pass my own surplus to somebody who could use it.

People are so friggin "business" oriented now that everything is transactional.  They usually want to extract more from you than they're already getting, even if you are plain giving it to them for free.  I swear that most audio enthusiasts are more focused on showing off what they own and/or "the deal" than they are in listening to music or movie dialog.  

So, I have a lot of stuff I'd love for somebody to enjoy.  What do you do?  I'm wide open for suggestions.  Landfills are not my preferred avenue.  Yard sales don't usually attract electronics aficionados.  Ideas?  Sounds like I'm not alone in this.

[ctsooner]

GREAT post BK.  It's been an issue for years and years.  if I knew someone would give some of these boxes a good forever home, I'd do that in a heartbeat. My trash Is another's .....  you get the gist.

Like anything else, folks need to know it's available.  Probably a 'Yard Sale' board is a way to show what's out there.  'Buyer' would just pay any cost for shipping etc...  

[BKDad]

I have some very, very nice 2Ci's that'd love a nice new home.  One example.

[Holmz]

7 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Guys, I still have PTSD from it.  It just soured me from dealing with folks I don't know…
,,, 

Similar deal with two fellows and on cars parts.

Not everyone operates and behaves in the same way.
Add to it culture, and it gets more difficult.

It is pretty much why ”young work mate” has a home speaker demo happening.

[ctsooner]

I've had wonderful luck buying and selling my portable audio gear over seas.  Mostly to Asian countries, but some to Europe too.  Never a problem and the folks on the other end are used to intercontinental shipments etc... , so there are never. issues with taxes and fees either.  All is done upfront the best we can. The buyers on the other end have always paid any fees incoming to their country.

 

[BKDad]

Here's the thing...

Lots of voices out there bemoan how the audio hobby has become the refuge of a very select group of old wealthy guys.  The idea being that this isn't good for the hobby overall.

It certainly is true that a lot of good gear is pretty expensive, especially more recent products.  It seems like the "middle class" of products is being hollowed out.  Low cost gear is popular as is uber expensive gear.  (The latter gets most of the press, warranted or not.)  It's also true that a lot of music lovers can't devote space for a good loudspeaker setup, for a bunch of reasons - that's part of the popularity of headphone listening.

The second thing is hard to get around.  But, used gear is a way around the cost to a large degree.

But, how do you connect sellers with buyers, especially with loudspeakers where shipping can cost as much as the used speakers themselves?

This is the problem.

I was thinking yesterday about record conventions I used to go to in the area, back in the late 80's.  There was one within an hour's drive pretty much every Sunday in some hotel banquet room.  All sorts of vendors had boxes of records on display, and lots of money and vinyl changed hands each week.  Plus, you got to run into fellow enthusiasts which became part of the attraction.  These fairs still exist, but aren't as frequent.  At least based on my web search - I haven't been to one of these in years.

It's too bad that there's no similar flea markets for used audio gear.  At least, I'm not aware of any around my area.  (Somebody tell me that I wrong!  Please!)  Yeah, you can try ham radio oriented flea markets, but music enthusiasts don't have any visibility into those at all.  Yeah, there's general flea markets where you can find used furniture as well as used Beanie Babies.  There's comic book cons, but I'm getting off track now.

An obvious choice would be to attach to record conventions.  But, I'm not sure how that would affect their floor plan fees.

Another choice would be for a brick and mortar store to sponsor an event like that.  Freeing up space (and perhaps cash!) for audio enthusiasts who then might purchase gear from the store could be a good thing for them.  Or, maybe, not.  I can't imagine that somebody hasn't thought of this before and probably even tried it.  If it was a success, they'd be held a couple times a year I'd guess.  (Side observation - we tried *giving* a pair of loudspeakers to a store that they could resell or give away themselves to an interested customer.  The store was not interested at all.)

Any ideas?  I am sure that I am not the only audio enthusiast who is storing gear not being used any longer because the idea of it getting tossed into a landfill isn't very palatable.  

[ctsooner]

The record store I had gone to since I was 10 or so JUST went out of business in the least few years.  The owner was a jazz musician and he always had a drum kit set up in the back. Wed nights they would have a jazz band playing.  Integrity in Music from Wethersfield, CT was the name.  I really miss that place even though I can't do vinyl anymore and will be selling what's left of my collection.  Mom threw out over 5k of my albums that were in storage at her house, along with full sets of baseball cards in original wrapper from 1967-1978 (when I left for college).  Sorry to get off topic, but I was triggered!!!!!

I agree about shipping etc...  That's just built into the cost of a new unit, but not when it's used.  There's a market for all and if the used market it the only way someone can play, it's WELL worth it. As you stated, it's all about keeping this hobby going strongly.  Sadly, the older the owners get, the fewer stores are left as many just sell their inventory and used gear and call it a day.  The Gifted Listener in VA was one of those.  I used to love going to talk with the owner about us growing up and knowing a ton of the same folks (he went to school at Amherst (MA) and lived up there when I was growing up and we both knew a ton of folks in the audio world.  Miss those talks with him. It's also where I auditioned Rega vs Linn and fell in love with Linn and was unable to buy a Rega after that, lol.  Again, it's all memories and stories that the younger generation may of may not have. I sure hope there are enough younger folks who eventually find their way to audio like we know it.  

BK, I agree with you 100%.  It's why I love it when manufacturers go to their retail shops to meet and greet etc...  Too many shops are snobs still and make most anyone feel unwelcome.

[audioNeil]

It's probably been 10 years since I've used Audiogon, but I've always had good experiences. 

In fact, one Rel subwoofer I bought blew on me after a few weeks use, and the seller gave me the money to fix it.  It then blew again which prompted me to get the whole amp board replaced (Rel gave a discount) on my own dime.  I had a local dealer sell it on consignment, as I didn't want to blow it up again.  They shipped it to the U.S. via UPS without putting it on a palette.  The shipper destroyed it, and wouldn't pay because they said it wasn't packed properly (it was in original boxes).  Luckily the dealer paid me anyway.

I now suspect that the sub blew because of the characteristics of my amp.  Rel is D.C. coupled, and I think I may have had a floating or balanced output from my amp.  I feel bad for the seller who paid for the repair.  I won't buy another Rel sub, though.

I've bought and sold many things on Canuck Audio Mart, and lately used the sister site US Audio Mart.  For anything other than a local pickup, I always call the other person.  If they have feedback, and are a fellow audiophile, I feel things will go well.  They always have.  I've had great experiences, and have learned a lot.

I do feel there are some independent business sellers who are into the "buy low, sell high" used business, and I don't bother with their adds.  I deal with dealers selling consignment or demo stock, or with fellow audio enthusiasts.