Anyone tried bi-amp with two different amp?

[VFan]

I know in manual Richard does not recommend biamp with two different makes of poweramp i.e. one on bass and one on highs, but has anyone tried say using a cable splitter out from the highpass crossover and connect to two different amplifier, assuming they both have the same input impedance?

[stratocaster]

I have done horizontal bi-amping using Mccormack’s DNA-1 and .5 amps. Woofers are being fed through the 1 and tweeters through 0.5. In this case the manufacturer, the design and the input impedance of the amps is the same. I just went through all the trouble since I had the equipment available to make it happen and Covid was driving me nuts. There was no benefit from the perspective of sound and in fact the whole setup increased the number of cables, connectors etc. and was not worth the hassle.

I guess you have to ask yourself what is it that you are expecting to enhance by doing horizontal biamping.

[Richard Vandersteen]

My experience over the years would say to bi-wire with one better amplifier always sounds better!  The reason the manual recommends vertical bi-amping is at least the sound will be the same top to bottom.  The crossover in most Vandersteen's is either 600 or900Hz where the ear is most sensitive and most unhappy with tying to blend the sound from two different sounding amplifiers.  Many have tried tubes on top and solid state on the bottom but once the excitement of the solid state control of the bass and the sweetness of the highs is noted ones wife or fellow audiophile says that the system is not as coherent  nor images as well as before.  We hobbyist tend to hear what we think we did but friends, time and playing more music soon gets us back on track!

RV 

[olds1959special]

I am horizontal bi-amping with a Rotel RB-1050 on bass and Hafler DH-120 on midrange/treble. I think it sounds great. I don't think it matters too much that you use different amps if you match the amps to the application. The Rotel is 70 watts and is a powerful, clean sounding amp - perfect for bass. I attenuate the level slightly to match the Hafler. The Hafler is 60 watts and has a really sweet, coherent sound, great for treble. Since the bass driver is a different speaker I don't think using a different amp matters that much IMO, especially when you're on a budget and you happen to have two amps lying around.

Edited April 21, 2023 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

I use the Schiit Saga S preamp which has two outputs so that's how it's possible to do without a splitter cable.

[Richard Vandersteen]

olds1959special, you are the BOSS if you find the different amps are the way to go it is yours to choose or are you not sure!  I assure you one better higher quality no feedback amplifier will be superior.  Best Bi-Amp situation would be to a subwoofer when a very high feedback amplifier can control the woofer properly without the compromise in the mids and highs by using a no feedback amp on yourTwo"s.  When on a budget is very prudent to spend every penny towards an ultimate known goal, IMO.  Few years down the road your system can be better for less investment.  RV

[olds1959special]

Thanks Richard! I would like to hear the no feedback amp. But taking a quick look at some "no feedback" amps such as Ayre, I'm seeing the prices are around a couple thousand. If I was spending that much on an amp I may as well upgrade the speakers to the latest Model 2's as well. At least my 2Ci's are sounding better than ever before so I can happy with that for now. I have never owned/tried an amp more than 80 watts, and since I'm now using the combination of amps to get 130 watts I am able to hear the benefit of having more power. If I was getting a single amp I would want 150+ watts of power I think. Long-term goals!

 

Another issue is space constraints. Using two amps I can place them underneath my TV on either side.

Edited April 21, 2023 by olds1959special

[Richard Vandersteen]

10 minutes ago, olds1959special said:

Thanks Richard! I would like to hear the no feedback amp. But taking a quick look at some "no feedback" amps such as Ayre, I'm seeing the prices are around a couple thousand. If I was spending that much on an amp I may as well upgrade the speakers to the latest Model 2's as well. At least my 2Ci's are sounding better than ever before so I can happy with that for now. I have never owned/tried an amp more than 80 watts, and since I'm now using the combination of amps to get 130 watts I am able to hear the benefit of having more power. If I was getting a single amp I would want 150+ watts of power I think. Long-term goals!

 

Another issue is space constraints. Using two amps I can place them underneath my TV on either side.

This is a common misconception but unfortunately the power does not add.  When Bi-Amping you have 70 watts available at all frequencies on the woofer terminal and 60 watts available at all frequencies on the Mid/Tweeter terminal but unfortunately no 130 watts anywhere.  You are likely to have a slightly different harmonic balance top to bottom that you like better.  RV

[stratocaster]

@olds1959special find a local dealer who can lend you amps to try out and you will experience what Richard and others on this forum have chimed in on.  Depending on the dealer you might end up paying a nominal fee or none at all.  Almost everyone on this forum have run down the rabbit hole of juggling costs and equipment upgrades. Benefit of experimenting with electronics is that it’s easier to offload electronics than speakers due to shipping costs and physical constraints. So your rationale of using money to upgrade speakers than the amp  will find you in a worst spot since the newer generation Vandersteen speakers will mercilessly reveal flaws in your upstream components. 

 

[GdnrBob]

A used Ayre AX 7e can be had for a little more than $1K used.- And, you get a nice preamp to go with it.

Bob

[Holmz]

13 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

This is a common misconception but unfortunately the power does not add.  When Bi-Amping you have 70 watts available at all frequencies on the woofer terminal and 60 watts available at all frequencies on the Mid/Tweeter terminal but unfortunately no 130 watts anywhere.  You are likely to have a slightly different harmonic balance top to bottom that you like better.  RV

While ^all that^ is true, if one is on a budget, then IMO it is better to put the funds into the speakers.
As an example, I ran one of those $70 AIYAMA A07 amps on the 2C for a short while… It sounded remarkably good.
Yeah… OK…  it was not as good as the PrimaLuna, but it was not in any way bad.

And young workmate and I dragged over the 38 year old 2C and shoved it where his Klipsch speakers were sitting.
I forget what 5.1 amp was plugged in, but it was a Technique, Sony, or something like that…
I thought I was going to have to go all Ju Jitsu on him and his Mrs. to get the things beck into the back of the SUV.

I would rather do ^that bi-amping^, than say, run your M5 amp on a Wilson, Magico, or Focal…

Ideally one does both, but the speakers can have a more apparent effect upon the sound than the amplifier does… in my limited observation.

Maybe @olds1959special runs em for a while, and then they either still likes em, or they decides to use them as the thing to AB against.

[ctsooner]

Guys, the real question is how much do you have to spend on an amp?  If you sell the pre amp, how much would you get?  Put that into a used AX7 (as many of us did to start out) or another good integrated amp like Simaudio or Belles etc...  I'm glad you love the sound, because upgrading to one better amp will give you even better sound.  To me that's a true win win for you.  Don't over think it as many of us do, lol.  

[Holmz]

Or the real question is whether it sounds good enough, and whether it is now time to just focus on the music and the listening?

But I like amps just as much as the next fellow or lady, and the shiny ones have a draw.

[olds1959special]

One down side to bi amping with different amps is having to adjust the levels of the louder amp. I guess there's a better way to do that (I thought I could play pink noise through the amps and measure the volts on a multimeter?) but for now have been doing it by ear, but I'm never sure if I got it exactly right. The Rotel has a volume trim for each channel on the front.

Edited April 23, 2023 by olds1959special

[olds1959special]

I decided to match levels differently. I turn up both amps all the way, then since the sound is slightly too bassy that way, I use the midrange and tweeter level controls on the back of the 2Ci's to adjust the balance. It sounds better this way.

 

Right now the midrange and tweeter are at + 1.5dB and the balance seems good.

Edited April 24, 2023 by olds1959special

[Holmz]

8 hours ago, olds1959special said:

One down side to bi amping with different amps is having to adjust the levels of the louder amp. I guess there's a better way to do that (I thought I could play pink noise through the amps and measure the volts on a multimeter?) but for now have been doing it by ear, but I'm never sure if I got it exactly right. The Rotel has a volume trim for each channel on the front.

That should work if they both are being fed the same signal from a Y splitter.
(Then the same volts means the same overall gain, unless they have a “loudness” compensation.)

The fact that you are running them 1.5dB different would be like twisting the pot on the back of the speaker’s XO 1.5 dB.
(Whether you set the gain the same, and  move the speaker pot 1.5dB,  or set the amp 1.5 dB different, so get you to the same place.)
I am not sure what “r’oight” is, as the ears and the room, sort of define what sounds right. If it sounds good, then stressing about the 1.5 dB is not overly helpful.
Bob would probably recommend a Ficus plant, and others some other absorption, but unless there is a WAF/Feng-Shui approach, then is acceptable… just using the 1.5 dB less energy is a good approach IMO.

A better way to do all this would be to use some external crossover so that the high end does not have to produce the bass voltage, and the low end does not produce the high freqs.
Bryson makes such a device, as do others and there are digital ones as well.
(The DEXQ is the upper end of the digital unit from what I can tell.)

Then use some similar amps, which should/could be matching ones.
Maybe the Neuchrome amps as they at least measure good, but they are a high feedback amp… however they are not too pricy.

If the XO went could in my speakers I would probably do ^all that^.

On the other end of things, one of the Nagra amps has a switch to do stereo/bridged/bi-amp… so one signal goes in and bi-amp comes out.
But it is a bit more money than a Ayre or Bryson, even buying them used.