Integrated Amp recommendation for 2Ce's

[redbarron]

Greetings all,

I am new to the Hi-Fi  world and recently acquired  a pair of mint condition 2Ce's.  After spending a few weeks looking through the various forums here, I feel like I am in way over my head! lol.  Most people here seem to be using high end equipment, which my budget unfortunately doesn't allow. With that being said, I am looking for a sub 1k integrated amp or a separates  amp  / receiver that would pair well with my 2ce's. 

I have a Fluance RT 82 TT, and a 25 year old Panasonic CD player. Speakers are bi-wired, and in a 20x15 room

My previous system was a 2 channel set up with a Denon AVR 2112 with Kef IQ3 book shelf.  I was looking for  a fuller and more spacious, detailed sound.  So when the Vandys dropped into my lap, they were exactly what I was looking for. They didn't sound bad with the Denon, however I can tell they are capable of much more. I did some research on integrated amps in my price range and settled on the Marantz 1200. (75 w into 8 ohms)  The Marantz sounds good however I have to have the volume knob up to 65-70 to get the sound I like. ( which really isn't that loud) It feels under powered to me and the sound quality between vinyl, CD, streaming and ripped FLAC 24 bit files is very different. I would say my vinyl sounds the best!  All in all, besides the features on the Marantz there isn't much of a sound quality difference between the 2 receivers to warrant keeping the Marantz, unless of course anything else within my sub 1k budget is not going to produce better sound.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Barron 

[TomicTime]

Hi Barron - and welcome ! You have got a great speaker with a fantastic reputation for great sonics - stick with it. Because it is ( what i consider ) full range, it does require some juice to run it . I think you are wise to consider an integrated amp. While many of us now have separate components  and fairly exotic systems…quite a few of us started with a simple yet robust integrated amplifier.  In fact some still do running products from Ayre, Aesthetix and LFD, etc. Those are most likely not in your price range but there will be solid gear that is. Is there a Vandersteen dealer near you ? a few of them buy and sell used gear. For example Stereo Unlimited in San Diego carries Marantz and can give you advice on improving your sound.

My best to you in your musical journey - reach out any time !

Jim

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, redbarron said:

Greetings all,

I am new to the Hi-Fi  world and recently acquired  a pair of mint condition 2Ce's.  After spending a few weeks looking through the various forums here, I feel like I am in way over my head! lol.  Most people here seem to be using high end equipment, which my budget unfortunately doesn't allow. With that being said, I am looking for a sub 1k integrated amp or a separates  amp  / receiver that would pair well with my 2ce's. 

I have a Fluance RT 82 TT, and a 25 year old Panasonic CD player. Speakers are bi-wired, and in a 20x15 room

My previous system was a 2 channel set up with a Denon AVR 2112 with Kef IQ3 book shelf.  I was looking for  a fuller and more spacious, detailed sound.  So when the Vandys dropped into my lap, they were exactly what I was looking for. They didn't sound bad with the Denon, however I can tell they are capable of much more. I did some research on integrated amps in my price range and settled on the Marantz 1200. (75 w into 8 ohms)  The Marantz sounds good however I have to have the volume knob up to 65-70 to get the sound I like. ( which really isn't that loud) It feels under powered to me and the sound quality between vinyl, CD, streaming and ripped FLAC 24 bit files is very different. I would say my vinyl sounds the best!  All in all, besides the features on the Marantz there isn't much of a sound quality difference between the 2 receivers to warrant keeping the Marantz, unless of course anything else within my sub 1k budget is not going to produce better sound.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Barron 

redbaron, keep your old Denon and use the Pre-out to drive a used Adcom, Parasound, Bryston or any solid stereo amplifier from the past.  Those are just a few names but if you find any American made amp with a different name bounce it off the folks on this forum before buying it.  Getting a solid amp with some current will make your Steens sing.  RV

[redbarron]

5 hours ago, TomicTime said:

Hi Barron - and welcome ! You have got a great speaker with a fantastic reputation for great sonics - stick with it. Because it is ( what i consider ) full range, it does require some juice to run it . I think you are wise to consider an integrated amp. While many of us now have separate components  and fairly exotic systems…quite a few of us started with a simple yet robust integrated amplifier.  In fact some still do running products from Ayre, Aesthetix and LFD, etc. Those are most likely not in your price range but there will be solid gear that is. Is there a Vandersteen dealer near you ? a few of them buy and sell used gear. For example Stereo Unlimited in San Diego carries Marantz and can give you advice on improving your sound.

My best to you in your musical journey - reach out any time !

Jim

Thanks Jim, I just happened to be off from work today and found a dealer about 45 min away!

[redbarron]

5 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

redbaron, keep your old Denon and use the Pre-out to drive a used Adcom, Parasound, Bryston or any solid stereo amplifier from the past.  Those are just a few names but if you find any American made amp with a different name bounce it off the folks on this forum before buying it.  Getting a solid amp with some current will make your Steens sing.  RV

Hi Richard, thank you for the suggestions! I located a dealer this morning about 45 minutes from me and took a drive over. They also felt my current setup was under powered and to move on from the Marantz.  The demo room with the 2ce's was being used at the time, so Greg  at Audio Connection, suggested I come back with my amp to try and find a good match.  (sounds like I missed you by a few days lol)

I'm looking forward to finding the right components to get these Vandys singing! 

Barron

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, redbarron said:

Hi Richard, thank you for the suggestions! I located a dealer this morning about 45 minutes from me and took a drive over. They also felt my current setup was under powered and to move on from the Marantz.  The demo room with the 2ce's was being used at the time, so Greg  at Audio Connection, suggested I come back with my amp to try and find a good match.  (sounds like I missed you by a few days lol)

I'm looking forward to finding the right components to get these Vandys singing! 

Barron

red barron, I was suggesting you use your Denon for a pre-amp and add a used or new power amp to get the most out of your $1000 bucks.  Separates will almost always outperform an integrated for the money and will usually allow for shorter speaker wires (a good thing).  RV

[GdnrBob]

You are in good hands at Audioconnection.

While there, I suggest looking at Belles and Ayre. I think a used Ayre AX-7e integrated would be a great, as well as inexpensive way to go.

Bob

[ursus13]

Rotel would be worth looking at.

[Holmz]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:58 PM, redbarron said:

Greetings all,

I am new to the Hi-Fi  world and recently acquired  a pair of mint condition 2Ce's.  After spending a few weeks looking through the various forums here, I feel like I am in way over my head! lol.  Most people here seem to be using high end equipment, which my budget unfortunately doesn't allow. With that being said, I am looking for a sub 1k integrated amp or a separates  amp  / receiver that would pair well with my 2ce's. 

I have a Fluance RT 82 TT, and a 25 year old Panasonic CD player. Speakers are bi-wired, and in a 20x15 room

My previous system was a 2 channel set up with a Denon AVR 2112 with Kef IQ3 book shelf.  I was looking for  a fuller and more spacious, detailed sound.  So when the Vandys dropped into my lap, they were exactly what I was looking for. They didn't sound bad with the Denon, however I can tell they are capable of much more. I did some research on integrated amps in my price range and settled on the Marantz 1200. (75 w into 8 ohms)  The Marantz sounds good however I have to have the volume knob up to 65-70 to get the sound I like. ( which really isn't that loud) It feels under powered to me and the sound quality between vinyl, CD, streaming and ripped FLAC 24 bit files is very different. I would say my vinyl sounds the best!  All in all, besides the features on the Marantz there isn't much of a sound quality difference between the 2 receivers to warrant keeping the Marantz, unless of course anything else within my sub 1k budget is not going to produce better sound.

Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance,

Barron 

I usually go a bit against the grain…

If you look at the crappiest amp on the market they usually have an SNR of  ~60.
if you look at the best and worst speakers you will find the the distortion of yours is on the low side.

Yeah a good amp is nice to have. But between speakers preamp and amp,… the order (IMO) flows left to right.
i literally ran some 2Cs with $70 AiIYAMA amps and they sounded pretty good. And I still have a set running some AVP/AVR channels.

I’ll admire that the story is a bit more nuanced on amp distortion.
But it is probably best to just love them as is, or take your time when considering the amp upgrades.

(I always favour monoblocks, all else equal.)

Edited November 12, 2023 by Holmz

[ctsooner]

I’d go the route Richard said.  I bet you can find a large NAD or Rotel used set of mono’s for 1k or so.  See what Johnny had in the basement 😉.  Just saying, that he may have something perfect for you there. 

[BartJY]

I've always had my eye on a McIntosh MA5300, 100 Watt integrated amplifier. Is that crazy to add that to my 2Ces? And would it's 100 Watts do a good job driving them? I currently have the combo of a NAD C 162 Preamp and a NAD C 272 Amplifier. Would such an expensive upgrade be worth it? I know it's nuts, but I really want one.......

[TomicTime]

Nothing is crazy in this hobby of ours…. There are at least two Mac dealers that carry Vandersteen - seek them out… Most likely they will be able to give you a fair unvarnished assessment and also provide alternative ideas….

 

[SAGNI]

@redbarron congrats on scoring the 2ce/s — in other good news, you’ve landed at a stellar dealership in Audio Connection. When you’re ready, check out any of the Belles stuff, excellent quality and a great value, 

[redbarron]

I found a NAD 2200 , Adcom GFA 3500,  a 5300 and an 535, all seem to be priced reasonably.  Do you feel any of these would be a good budget paring? 

Thanks in advance!

[TomicTime]

GFA stood for Great _______ ‘n Amplifier…. and made Adcom a temporarily great brand, especially for the $. Many are getting long in the tooth but IF power supply caps replaced or in excellent condition WILL provide the juice that can make 2’s and 3’s sing. In your situation, strongly encourage you to work w Audio Connections to avoid an experiment on an older amp unless you can get documentation on upkeep.

[redbarron]

2 hours ago, TomicTime said:

GFA stood for Great _______ ‘n Amplifier…. and made Adcom a temporarily great brand, especially for the $. Many are getting long in the tooth but IF power supply caps replaced or in excellent condition WILL provide the juice that can make 2’s and 3’s sing. In your situation, strongly encourage you to work w Audio Connections to avoid an experiment on an older amp unless you can get documentation on upkeep.

Thanks TomicTime. I understand what your saying.  I'm thinking about taking achance with the NAD 2200. It seems to have the power I need, if I can snag it for 150ish I may experiment with it.

[TomicTime]

You are welcome. i don’t have any experience with that NAD amplifier but sold a LOT of the previous generation of NAD amplifiers to Vandersteen owners.  A $150 flier assuming no DC at tge outputs seems like a worthy musical experiment !,,,, have fun

Jim

[GdnrBob]

I had the Adcom amp long ago. It still worked when I sold it 30 years ago. But, yes, they are long in the tooth.

I think the GFA's were a Nelson Pass design.

Affordable McCormack amps can be found. SMcAudio will rebuild/upgrade them for a reasonable cost, too.

 

Bob

[redbarron]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:51 PM, redbarron said:

Hi Richard, thank you for the suggestions! I located a dealer this morning about 45 minutes from me and took a drive over. They also felt my current setup was under powered and to move on from the Marantz.  The demo room with the 2ce's was being used at the time, so Greg  at Audio Connection, suggested I come back with my amp to try and find a good match.  (sounds like I missed you by a few days lol)

I'm looking forward to finding the right components to get these Vandys singing! 

Barron

Hi Richard, I just noticed that the only PRE OUT on my Denon 2112ci is a ZONE 2 pre out.  Can this be used for connecting an external amp?

[Richard Vandersteen]

5 hours ago, redbarron said:

Hi Richard, I just noticed that the only PRE OUT on my Denon 2112ci is a ZONE 2 pre out.  Can this be used for connecting an external amp?

I don't know your unit, but it would be a good question for Denon customer service or a careful reading of the owner's manual.  RV

[redbarron]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:51 PM, Richard Vandersteen said:

I don't know your unit, but it would be a good question for Denon customer service or a careful reading of the owner's manual.  RV

According to Denon CS, I can use  these pre outs, but only for zone 2 speakers.  I guess I'll have to add a pre amp to my shopping list 🙂 

[stebaht]

Hi redbarron,

You’ve mentioned NAD so I figured I would chime in. I ran a pair of 2ce Sigs with an NAD c352 integrated with good success but shortly thereafter found a steal on an NAD c375bee integrated (~150 WPC). The bigger NAD integrated was a fantastic combo with those speakers. It also had a pre-out/main-in loop which enabled me to add a pair of Vandy 2wq subs down the road. The whole setup is still rocking up the road here in Jersey City at a buddy’s place.

As others have said, you’re in great hands with Johnny R! Help him help you.

Best,

Steve m 

[Boom Boom]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:08 PM, redbarron said:

Hi Richard, I just noticed that the only PRE OUT on my Denon 2112ci is a ZONE 2 pre out.  Can this be used for connecting an external amp?

Hey redbarron

You should be able to download the manual for the Denon here: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/356904/Denon-Avr-2112ci.html

You should be able to use the Zone 2 pre out as RV recommended but it is limited and may not work the way you want. It looks like the pre outs are not variable, so you'll need an integrated amp to control the volume. If this is truly the case, I would recommend you replace the Denon and connect the 2Ces with a better integrated amp directly. You also will not be able to play via zone 2, components connected to the Denon's digital connectors (HDMI, coax or optical).

Here's a screen shot of a page that may be helpful to you.

The last time I setup a friend's HT Receiver, his Marantz zone 2 was used for a different room. He had in-wall speakers professionally installed. He built a new AV cabinet and had to disconnect all the wiring to remove the components and the old cabinet then reinstall with the new cabinet. I was asked to reconnect everything into the new cabinet. I don't recall if he had the digital connection limitations. He wasn't interested in listening to the TV/Video programming in the second room. He used the RCA connectors to connect his CD player. His receiver had variable RCA outputs so he used a Rotel amp. 

Best

-Robert

 

[ctsooner]

After reading this thread again and knowing that you are close to Johnny, I'd say to listen to Johnny and Greg. and go that route.  It will take all the guess work out of things and allow you to match up with proper electronics for your budget.  I go to Johnny and I'm over 2.5 hours away. I personally think I know a bit about audio and I go to a ton of shops to audition etc... I'll be in FL this coming week and already have a listening session set up with some expensive gear I haven't heard yet.  I have found that every Vandy dealer I have gone to in person (a lot of them), they just get it.  They will all have their favorites, but they knwo what sounds best with their gear.   

Richard already said that you should go with separates if you can afford them.  I have always LOVED Rotel and NAD for less expensive options.  I know Johnny sells both, so he can help you with the sound differences between the two brands.  He also has plenty of used gear in his basement.  Maybe he has a pre that he'd love to move to pair with a nice set of mono blocks.  Always ask as you never know.  

Please keep us advised on your next trip there.

[redbarron]

On 1/7/2024 at 3:00 PM, Boom Boom said:

Hey redbarron

You should be able to download the manual for the Denon here: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/356904/Denon-Avr-2112ci.html

You should be able to use the Zone 2 pre out as RV recommended but it is limited and may not work the way you want. It looks like the pre outs are not variable, so you'll need an integrated amp to control the volume. If this is truly the case, I would recommend you replace the Denon and connect the 2Ces with a better integrated amp directly. You also will not be able to play via zone 2, components connected to the Denon's digital connectors (HDMI, coax or optical).

Here's a screen shot of a page that may be helpful to you.

The last time I setup a friend's HT Receiver, his Marantz zone 2 was used for a different room. He had in-wall speakers professionally installed. He built a new AV cabinet and had to disconnect all the wiring to remove the components and the old cabinet then reinstall with the new cabinet. I was asked to reconnect everything into the new cabinet. I don't recall if he had the digital connection limitations. He wasn't interested in listening to the TV/Video programming in the second room. He used the RCA connectors to connect his CD player. His receiver had variable RCA outputs so he used a Rotel amp. 

Best

-Robert

 

Thanks for the info Robert! I appreciate your help. I did contact Denon CS and they had the same reply. Unfortunately the Denon is not going to be a good option for my needs.

I did find on FB Market an old 100w Yamaha RX V2090 integrated receiver ( must weight close to 50 pounds)  What a difference in sound quality from the 90 W Denon that is probably 20 years newer than the Yamaha. This has preouts for an external amp, so I may try and match something up with it if I can.