olds1959special Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 Are the newer Model 2’s less muffled in the high end? My friend thinks tv is slightly muffled with my 2ci’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted May 26 Author Share Posted May 26 I'm getting a Schiit Loki EQ to boost treble around 8k to help with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 9 hours ago, olds1959special said: Are the newer Model 2’s less muffled in the high end? My friend thinks tv is slightly muffled with my 2ci’s. The new Model 2Ce Signature III can be a bright sounding loudspeaker, mine were. Purchased new, at around 100hrs into the run-in period, I started sensing a general coherence from the presentation. Also, if you run a vacuum tube preamp you will be able to change tonality through tube rolling. Copied/pasted from another thread; "More tube rolling; Snappers - full matched Mullard EL-34, a 12AT7 plus, some GE JAN. Chinook - NOS matched Telefunken 6922, Shrimp - NOS GE JAN's and Siemens 12AT7. Rolled in some Mullard 12AT7's. Got better, preferred 'em to the GE 12AT7's supplied by Manley. Settled on NOS Siemens 12AT7's for the 12AT7 stage of the Shrimp. To be honest, the Siemens were a complete surprise at how well they marshaled the sound, synergized with the other tubes. Tube rolling as tone controls. With the current compliment of tubes the 2's are offering loads of tactile midrange without sounding harsh or in-your-face. Cellos and violins sound much more immediate, have a balanced tonal character, have tamed the brightness of the 2's." Cody 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 2 hours ago, olds1959special said: I'm getting a Schiit Loki EQ to boost treble around 8k to help with this! Where are the tone controls set on your 2's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted May 26 Author Share Posted May 26 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Oregon said: Where are the tone controls set on your 2's? I just set them to flat. I also changed the IC between dac and pre-amp to silver, which helped a lot. I cancelled the order for the Schiit EQ for now (I already owned one of these, and am trying to avoid using it if possible.) I've heard the 2ci's described as lush and warm, and the newer ones described as more dynamic. Edited May 26 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKDad Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 I spent close to three decades optimizing a system built around 2Ci's that we purchased new in the late 80's. Aside from the obvious placement of the speakers and listening position within the room, room treatments, tilt angle and toe-in, I tried using different sized balls between the Sound Anchors base on the 2Ci's as well as balls made of different materials. Different feet under the Sound Anchors. Different cables. Different electronics - I ended up building my own. By the end, I figured I had wrung at least 99% of the sound quality potential out of those 2Ci's. (I'm not recommending that approach, but that's how I choose to do things. I see no point in just jumping to the latest thing when the rest of the system isn't capable of supporting it. I'm not going to blame perceived deficiencies on things that I should really understand and fix myself. My goal is to converge on a solution, not jump from one frying pan to another, with the fire in between.) So, we went shopping for new Vandersteen loudspeakers. The new ones, all of them, are better than the 2Ci's in every way. OK, not counting the 1 series or the VLR's, which we didn't listen to. Adjusting the contour controls or adding EQ only tricks your ears, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't make up for lack of resolution. BTW, based on the official on-line inflation calculators, the latest rendition of the 2 series costs the same in adjusted for inflation dollars as our 2Ci's did in 1988. The newer ones are a ton better sounding for the same equivalent price. Both my wife and I are thrilled with the newer speakers. They are no longer the limiting factor in the sonics here. I know that Kentos and Sevens are better, but I haven't gotten the most out of the Quatro CT's yet. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted May 26 Author Share Posted May 26 Why did the connections change from banana plug inputs to the screw terminals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Vandersteen Posted May 26 Share Posted May 26 7 minutes ago, olds1959special said: Why did the connections change from banana plug inputs to the screw terminals? Much improved sound and gas tight so it would stay that way over time. RV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 (edited) I found this review on Audiogon:"I had 2CI’s for over 20 years and loved them. A friend sold me his 2CE’s Signature for an extremely cheap price. Replaced the 2CI with the 2CE in the exact same spots, sounded like s**t. Figured it couldn’t be the speakers so replaced all system components right down to all the cables, plus experimented with different positioning. They still sounded like s**t. Stopped listening to system for 6 months. After 6 months, tried it again and still hated them. Stupidly, I gave away the 2CI to a fellow Audiogoner for free and ended up selling the 2CE. For whatever reason, they did not sound good in my system. I was using a 175wpc Classe’ amp and an AI Modulus 3A pre, VPI HW19mk II turntable, Pioneer PD65 CD Player, AudioQuest cables and speaker wire. I bought Von Schweikert VR33 speakers which were an even bigger disaster. " I thought this was funny, I know lots of people love the newer models, but reading this makes me want to stick with my 2Ci's. I have also heard people say Vandersteen speakers were better in the days when they were not as expensive (like the 90's). After upgrading my system, my 2Ci's sound as good as I could possibly want or need. Although I wonder if the reviewer wasn't using enough power. Aren't the 2Ce's slightly less efficient? Edited June 1 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKDad Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Everybody has their own opinion and taste. It's great that there are so many solutions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GdnrBob Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 I have come to view Audiogon with more skepticism these day. Some of the posters are just trolls, some are know-it-alls, some are dealers that want to sell their gear. I pity the newbie that enters the fray. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKDad Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Look at it this way.... When you go to a place like Audiogon, you are usually (not always) getting information worth exactly as much as you are paying for it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 3 Author Share Posted June 3 (edited) I have to admit I am curious to try some 2Ce's or later models. This is on my wish list for the future. I would have to find a good deal on a used pair. They seem to pop up every so often. Is it really true the 2Ce's get progressively better with the later models (signature 2 and 3, etc.?) Is there a point where the improvements became less significant? Is there a certain model that is the best value, or should I just look for the newest ones I can find? Edited June 3 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 3 Author Share Posted June 3 (edited) Also.... « Reply #1 on: 22 Nov 2011, 04:57 am » Richard Vandersteen has been refining the 2ce Signature since the year 2000 so it is important to distinguish between the various iterations before you can talk about what each sounds like. I can think of four different iterations/versions: [Addendum: Here are the version of the Vandersteen 2ce 1. 2ce introduced in early 1991 with 3/4" tweeter from the 2ci 2. 2ce upgraded to 1" tweeter in late 1991 at SN#56032 3. 2ce upgraded in 1998 to include half the parts of the original 2ce Signature I at SN#77000 ] Version A: The original Vandersteen 2ce Signature. Introduced in the year 2000. Original MSRP is $1625 including the stands. Goes for about $850 used. Version B: A refined iteration of Version A. Can be identified with serial numbers 57374 and greater. Richard Vandersteen claims that this version has signficant upgrades over previous versions. Feb, 2005. Price - the same as Version A. Version 😄 The original Vandersteen 2ce signature II. It has the same tweeter and midrange as the original cloth Quatro which I think are the same drivers as the original model 5. Year 2007. Original MSRP is $2350 including the stands. Goes for about $1500-$1600 used. Version 😧 Version C but with the same mid-range as the 5A. July, 2011. MSRP is $2550 including the stands. [Addendum: The change from Version "C" to Version "D" occurred somewhere between SN# 68200 - 68700 (with the number likely being 68200 or 68500, but this is not confirmed).] I have a pair of Version A and Version C so my comments are directed towards these two models. Version A is more laid back and more forgiving of lesser recordings. Many Vandersteen critics have described the highs as sounding "veiled", but I think it is just that the upper mids that are slightly rolled off. It is a very easy speaker to listen to and will continue to improve with better upfront electronics. Version C is more lean, is more immediate and coherent and has less of the "veiled" sound people often associate with Vandersteen speakers. I have never heard Version D but I assume it is even more coherent with the improved midrange. If price were no object and you could afford the appropriate amplification, I think Version C/D is a big improvement over Versions A/B. However, it is all about system matching and you might get better sound out of Versions A/B depending on your electronics. Depending on your budget, it might make more sense to get Versions A, B, or C and put the the rest of the money towards better electronics. I know lots of people love tube amps with Vandies, but I am of the opinion that they really start to sing with lots of power as the bass becomes more solid and tight with a noticable improvement in attack and decay. I use a tube preamplifier and I think the combination is really great for the Series 2. Edited June 3 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 3 Author Share Posted June 3 (edited) So based on that, I would want to look for 2Ce Sig II's or better, I think, to reduce the "veil". However, I don't use a tube pre-amplifier, and I really like the warm, lush sound of the 2Ci's as they are forgiving with bright sources. It seems the newer models become progressively more lean and coherent. Edited June 3 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC-93 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 (edited) I love my 2Ce Signature II speakers. Using a Parasound HCA-1000A amp with the Parasound P/HP-850 pre amp. There are no caps or inductors in the audio path. The high damping factor controls the 10" woofer for deep, tight bass. Treble is clean and extended, up to my hearing limits. Midrange is to die for.... I paid a grand for mine in 2021, used, from the original owner. Included the stands and all 3 boxes. Edited June 3 by DC-93 added cost 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 I have heard Vandersteen's not sound great, but it was always set up and not the speakers. I've been hearing them (not owning a pair until about 15 years ago) in many different systems since 1982, but never heard them sound lean or bright. For my ears, that has always been from other factors from components to mostly rooms. If you get to know Richard, from meeting him at the shows, store visits or following him over here, you'll know that he is frugal. He makes constant upgrades to things and when he feels he has enough of an upgrade, he brings it to market as the next gen speaker. To his ears, each one is better than the other. I personally have felt the same way. I have been able to hear the newest 2's in about 7 different systems/rooms and boy to they scale. You have to have a certain level of electronics to play them, but that has to be expected at that price (doesn't mean you have to spend a ton on the electronics, but they should be components that work well with Vandersteen's over the years. That goes for any revealing high end speaker. One of the dealers I know, played them with Ayre separates (5 series, not even 7) and they Sang. They absolutely scaled. The electronics weren't wasted by any means. To me, I always want to hear speakers played with top electronics as I get a baseline for how good they are or can be. Again, we all pick and chose different ways to enjoy our hobby. I'm just too old and lazy now to tube roll, component roll, cable or cord roll ect. Doesn't mean I don't still audition at local shops and when traveling like the rest of us. I just am listening more to the music than components while at home. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 4 Author Share Posted June 4 (edited) My focus right now is planning my upgrade to a newer model 2, specifically one that has the 1" tweeter upgrade from the 3/4" one. Mine are the 2ci's, and the 2ce was upgraded to a 1" tweeter in late 1991 at SN#56032, according to the info I found. I'm hoping to save money by getting an older pair. Edited June 4 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 5 Author Share Posted June 5 (edited) I just bought a pair of original 2ce Sig II (Version C) 65xxx. I'll pick them up tomorrow. Edited June 5 by olds1959special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olds1959special Posted June 5 Author Share Posted June 5 I just realized the sig 3 have no contour controls. Why the change? I like to set my tweeter setting at +1dB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 My understanding is RV omitted them. He felt they were no longer necessary. One of the benefits was better connection to the crossovers. I don't miss the adjustment pots. I find the toe in to be critical with my current setup with Sig III's. I used to trim the pots in the back of my 2C's +1 in the treble and -1 in the midrange. I got the idea reading an old Stereophile review of the 2Ci's. I tried the settings and liked them on my 2C's. YMMV! The 2C's were designed to be forward firing. I never toed them in. Thus toeing my Sig III's is a different journey in my model 2 ownership. Also addressing sound reflections off the walls is a must. This really improved highs and mids. Enjoy your Sig II's. The last time I heard that vintage was at the high end saloon in Tacoma. They hooked them up to Ayre separates. Very fond memories. -Robert 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC-93 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Toe in for less treble... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratocaster Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 1 hour ago, DC-93 said: Toe in for less treble... Increasing the tilt also helps. Considering the various sizes of rooms (with/without vaulted ceilings) that my 2CEs were played in, they always sounded the best when they were tilted a little further than what the manual suggested. I thought it was the components at first but I swapped quite a lot of different components (solid state and tube) and found that letting them lean made them sound the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Vandersteen Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 2 hours ago, stratocaster said: Increasing the tilt also helps. Considering the various sizes of rooms (with/without vaulted ceilings) that my 2CEs were played in, they always sounded the best when they were tilted a little further than what the manual suggested. I thought it was the components at first but I swapped quite a lot of different components (solid state and tube) and found that letting them lean made them sound the best. This is true of all Vandersteen's because a little more tilt is just like turning the tweeter down a bit without any non-linearity. Obviously, the leading edge of any musical transient would be slightly blunted because of smearing. RV 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 (edited) On 6/10/2024 at 5:33 PM, stratocaster said: Increasing the tilt also helps. Considering the various sizes of rooms (with/without vaulted ceilings) that my 2CEs were played in, they always sounded the best when they were tilted a little further than what the manual suggested. I thought it was the components at first but I swapped quite a lot of different components (solid state and tube) and found that letting them lean made them sound the best. On 6/10/2024 at 7:42 PM, Richard Vandersteen said: This is true of all Vandersteens because a little more tilt is just like turning the tweeter down a bit without any non-linearity. Obviously, the leading edge of any musical transient would be slightly blunted because of smearing. RV Removing the back spikes can also provide a bit more tilt. This has helped to corral the new 2's, bring the tonal balance more toward my taste. Despite these new 2's having abundant presence they do not induce fatigue. The loudspeakers are warming considerably, coming around nicely. Also, would filling the stands with buckshot help to "ground" the speakers, settle them? Cody Edited June 12 by Oregon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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