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Jonas' system and question


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HI, I have been a Vandersteen owner since 2005.  Been reading the forums for awhile now.  Looking forward to contributing as member. 

These are my 5A Carbon's in our living room.  I am planning to upgrade to the Model 7 XTRMs in the near future.  The 5ACs will be going to a different system/location.  Rest of my equipment (you can see the rack poking out behind and to the right of the right speaker):

- Ayre MXR 20s (AQ William Tell wire)

- Ayre KXR 20s (AQ Water)

- Aesthetix Rhea Eclipse (AQ Sky wire)

- AMG Giro / Teatro cart / AMG wire

- Bluenode 2i.

- Ayre power conditioner (entry level AQ power cords)

I love listening with my wife in the evenings and with friends and family.  Primarily Rock, R&B, Jazz with a smidge of Classical. 

I have a question for the forum about electrical. I want to get a dedicated circuit to the system.  At first I was recommended to go with a single 20A dedicated circuit to feed all three locations (the two speaker/amp combo locations and the rack makes three.)

Thinking more about it, I am considering maybe adding the Sub 9s and HPA 7 amps at some point in the future so now that would make 5 locations by adding the Subs.  Should I still go with one circuit?  If so, should it be higher than 20A?  Should I go with 5 separate 20A circuits? 

Would love your guidance!

Jonas

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One 20 amp circuit would run the whole future system.  I would use 2, one for the speaker end of the room and another for the front end of the system.  Make sure you run the Romax wire from the panel all the way to the plugs without interruption and have both of them on the same phase.  Try to use the phase that does not have any light dimmers.  Use high quality plug receptacles with the wire wrapped around the screw terminals.  Tighten all of the screws on the circuit breakers, neutral buss and ground buss.  Check for a low impedance to ground or install a new one.

RV

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First - Congrats on what must be a lovely system 😉 I run the 7 sub amps and M7 amps on a single 20 amp circuit and then two additional dedicated circuits for the front end ; one for preamp and purely analog gear, another for digital components on a dedicated power conditioning. The M7 amps like your Ayre need no help in that manner.  I would confirm w call to RV about system 9, 7 Xtrm and M7 all on one circuit, he will know….

Best to you. I upgraded from Ayre VX-R Twenty to the M7 amps. Good as the Ayre is…and they are fantastic, you are in for a mesmerizing treat. Best to you - enjoy the music.

Jim

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Thank you Richard, Jon and Jim!

A few follow ups to this terrific advice and please forgive the lack of electrical knowledge

-What level of impedance would qualify as low?  Where would I measure the ground impedance, is that for the whole house? 

- Am I trying to keep the dimmers off of that phase in that particular panel or relative to the whole house?  Would installing a sub panel just for the stereo make sense if there are dimmers all over the house?

- For the Romex wire is 10/2 the way to go or should I go fatter? Here's the info from Jon's MSB link.  Should I go ahead and follow that or stick to 10/2?  

  • 1 to 40 feet: 10 gauge wire
  • 40 to 60 feet: 8 gauge wire
  • Over 60 feet: 6 gauge wire

- Thank you so much!  This is an incredible community.  

Jonas

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Your electrician will know how to measure the impedance to ground.  Get is as low as you can but I would shoot for 10 ohms or less.  Going with a separate sub panel does not do much because it would be tied to the main anyway.  You electrician should be able to  move some load around the get the most used dimmers on the opposite phase.  I would use 10 gauge wire which is still manageable on the plug outlets.  This will be a good supply and further filtering should be experimented with for the different components.  Make sure they are quieter, more transparent and not just softer and less dynamic.  Many confuse this for an improvement because RF is "bright" so softer is better.  Not usually!

RV

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The 10/2 wire is nice because it is (usually) solid copper.  The bigger gauges, while sexy, are usually stranded wire.  And they won't be able to go straight into your outlets.  In my brain, my perception is I would rather go direct between the panel and the outlet and not change diameters or have any breaks along the way

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Edison was forward thinking with the light bulbs. (Those LEDs can be noisy, and even more so with a dimmer.)

I usually try and use halogen or incandescent for dimmable circuits… but I have never observed a sonic problem when using Romex pair between lights.

Using some conditioner on the main incoming line could  be a waste if inside the house there are LEDs and switching dimmers that are chopping away like mad. (But I have not noticed a problem). The outside patio, and kitchen lights, “were” <House sold Friday> on LEDs, and the living room was on incandescents.

 

24 minutes ago, JonM said:

The 10/2 wire is nice because it is (usually) solid copper.  The bigger gauges, while sexy, are usually stranded wire.  And they won't be able to go straight into your outlets.  In my brain, my perception is I would rather go direct between the panel and the outlet and not change diameters or have any breaks along the way

I do not know the code, but maybe one could run a couple of the 12/2 or 10/2 from a single breaker?  (I think 2x 12 ~= 10)

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Congrats on such a wonderful system.  I agree with Jim on the M7’s.  They are just a special amp on those speakers.  I use the Edison outlets from Garth at Audioquest.  I had the top Furetech in the system and liked the Edison’s better, but not night and day. If starting from scratch, try the Edisons.  I have two dedicated lines running into the system and LOVE it.  I still use the Niagara 3000 and it helps a bit, but not nearly as much as if I didnt’ have dedicated lines. I don’t use a sub panel as both breakers are grounded separately into the ground (copper bars) and not connected to the main board.  I have no idea if it sounds better, since there isn’t a way to A/B that, lol.  Im’ sure someone on Audiogon would tell us how they A/B’d it and it sounds better, lol... sorry, couldn’t help myself.  

One of our members reached out to me off the board about upgrading his 7’s.  I told him to get the Sub 9 as it cleans up the main speaker just as much as it makes a huge difference in the bass.  He’s very happy he did as it didn’t really ‘add’ more bass, but it makes everything else sound better.  Just a huge upgrade.  The XTRm up grade talks bass to another level i’m sure as I LOVE the bass on the Kento, which is the same design principle.  Sorry to go on, but thanks for the post. 

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@Jonas,

I rather doubt a whole house surge suppressor would affect current so much so that it affects sound quality. It just sits there waiting for an anomalous surge to occur and then stop it-and sacrificing itself in the process. But, Mr. V. might know more  knows more than I, so I will leave it to him.

Though I like the idea of using heavier gauged wire, it often results in greater difficulty in making connections (esp. outlets, as you mentioned). Also, that solid copper is a b++++h to work with.

If I were doing it, and had the funds to do it, I would add a higher amperage service box. Nothing like having more juice than you need.

B

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We can like the idea of these things, but particularly with my VTLs… they would play for many seconds after being turned off. (Pretty much until the heaters stopped heating.)

And go help someone servicing the equipment if the do not ensure that the capacitors are discharged.

 

All the well designed amplifiers have power supplies that are converting the AC to DC and storing it in capacitors…

I could probably convince myself that using bigger wire sounded better, but I would not be betting any money that anything measurable would be seen.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi, working on my electrical plan.  I wanted to get feedback on my electrician's plan for the dedicated circuits.  As a reminder, I am going with one 20A circuit for the rack and a separate 20A circuit for the 4 duplexes that power the pair of Sevens/Ayre MXR20 and the future pair of Sub 9s.  My question is with regard to the circuit that will power the 4 duplexes. The electrician would like to use a home run for each duplex and then make the link to the circuit breaker at the panel.  The alternative was to daisy chain the 4 duplexes.  What do you think is preferable?  Thank you!

Jonas 

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9 minutes ago, Jonas said:

Hi, working on my electrical plan.  I wanted to get feedback on my electrician's plan for the dedicated circuits.  As a reminder, I am going with one 20A circuit for the rack and a separate 20A circuit for the 4 duplexes that power the pair of Sevens/Ayre MXR20 and the future pair of Sub 9s.  My question is with regard to the circuit that will power the 4 duplexes. The electrician would like to use a home run for each duplex and then make the link to the circuit breaker at the panel.  The alternative was to daisy chain the 4 duplexes.  What do you think is preferable?  Thank you!

I am no electrical genius, but I think home runs for each duplex that connects to the breakerbox would be my choice. 

Daisy Chaining would mean anything plugged further upstream would be limited by power draws from the duplex preceding it. And, the combo of MXR's and Vandy subs, though not extreme, do use a considerable amount of power.

If this was posted on Audiogon, I'd PM Jea48 or Almarg, unfortunately the latter has gone to the Great Audio System of the Sky.(I hope he is listening to all his favorite music)

B.

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3 hours ago, Jonas said:

Hi, working on my electrical plan.  I wanted to get feedback on my electrician's plan for the dedicated circuits.  As a reminder, I am going with one 20A circuit for the rack and a separate 20A circuit for the 4 duplexes that power the pair of Sevens/Ayre MXR20 and the future pair of Sub 9s.  My question is with regard to the circuit that will power the 4 duplexes. The electrician would like to use a home run for each duplex and then make the link to the circuit breaker at the panel.  The alternative was to daisy chain the 4 duplexes.  What do you think is preferable?  Thank you!

Jonas 

i believe home run to panel is best, @Richard Vandersteen

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10 hours ago, ctsooner said:

I was told by many that you should always use 1 circuit with the whole system to avoid grounding issues?  I too have two dedicated, home run circuits, but use the second for the peripherals like wifi etc.. to keep it off the line with the audio.

I understand having 1 circuit would eliminate/minimize grounding issues, but having 2 dedicated lines going directly to the Mains should not introduce any issues with grounding, as the Mains are directly grounded from the box itself.

I know there are many who like to separate peripherals from the main audio. Wall warts, things that connect with ethernet, are thought to be potential points of introducing unwanted noise/distortion. I am somewhat skeptical, but, then again, I never considered power cords and interconnects to be a significant/audible factor in sound reproduction until I demoed the new AQ cables.

Bob

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  • 2 weeks later...

First night with the new electrical hookup and the impact is significant.  More detail and texture being the most obvious.  What a treat and for much less than the cost of component upgrade.

We followed Richard’s suggestion of the two dedicated 20A circuits on same phase.  One for the front end, the other for the mono’s and 5ACs.  New audio grade receptacles.  
 

Highly recommended!

 

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