Who's auditioned the new 2 Sig 3?

[ctsooner]

I have not heard them yet.  I will try to get to Ultra Fidelis or Audio Connection in the next month if I'm up for it to audition them.  I am in touch with someone who's purchased every generation of 2's since inception I believe.  He said that this is the largest upgrade in the 2's that he's ever heard.  He feels strongly that the 2's are much much better than the 3's.  They move plenty of air, but he said if you hear them right after each other, that you will buy the 2's.  Richard may not want me posting this and I haven't heard them .  I really really want to audition a pair though and see how high they can scale.  I'd love to hear them with M5's run full freq.

[Joey54]

I listened to the new 2Ce Signature III at the Audio Connection with John Rutan. They were driven by a Belles Virtuoso amplifier and preamp, Ayre QX-5 DAC and an Aurender N100H. The cabling was all Audioquest. They were not broken in yet but they reminded me of the non-CT Treo's more than 3A's. Probably because they have the same midrange as the Treo CT's. Like all Vandersteen's they have an excellent midrange and the bass seems more controlled than the 2CE Sig II's. The highs are not as sweet as the CT's tweeters in my Treo CT's but they are well extended and not harsh at all. The removal of the contour control seems to have had a positive effect on the sound. Whatever has been done, it's a major step forward for the 2CE's.

We played classical , folk and some R&R and all genre's sounded really good. 

JohnnyR has spent a lot of time listening to them and I expect he would be the best person to talk to about them.

On another note, my understanding is that the M5 amps are not designed to run properly with full range speakers. Maybe if you add the Sub III to the system it would be a good fit. My information may be incorrect so don't take it as  fact. I would check with JohnnyR or Richard on that one.

[GdnrBob]

It is amazing that Mr. V. can continually upgrade the 1,2,3 model line. That bare bones design really speaks to how well built/designed those speakers are.

Bob

[ctsooner]

Yes, when Richard comes to market with a new speaker, it's because he has a major leap forward. 

I disagree on the M5. Did Johnny really say that?  It goes down to 20hz.  If you have a speaker like a Magico or B&W who need feedback to control the bass, they will sound poorly.  If you have a speaker that doesn't need that for the bass, they will sound great.  Same with Ayre, Aesthetix, Audio Research and every single amp that doesn't use must global feedback.  This is a major problem that exists in audio.  

Too many folks are buying gear online on reviews or reading what folks say about the gear.  It's why brick and mortar dealers are so important.  They know what components play well together and which ones don't.  Many audiophiles also don't seem to even know what good, tight bass that is realistic sounds like.  

 

I'll get off my soap box for a bit...thanks for listening to my own personal feelings.  YMMV

[Joey54]

As I said I may have confused what he said and it might have been with regards to the M7 amplifiers and not both. Richard says in the product description that the M5 is suitable for all Vandersteen speakers. 

[BKDad]

This is just my opinion on amplifiers and I don't expect that everybody will buy into it at all. 

Personally, I think that painting all amplifiers with global feedback as bad and almost all without global feedback as good is really not accurate.  I've built and used both, and there's far more to it than the simple dichotomy of global feedback versus no global feedback.

The details of all this are far too involved for a forum like this.  (In fact, the forum software prevents typing in long answers!)  What I will offer is that using an open loop amplifier topology forces the designer to address all sorts of what might be considered secondary issues by many (they are not).  Most designers presume that using global feedback is a magic cure-all for everything bad, and it's not.  

[GdnrBob]

@Joey54,

It's easy to get signals crossed.

Bob

[GdnrBob]

@BKDad,

Though I wouldn't consider an amp with feedback to be 'bad', there seems to be a strong correlation with Vandy's  and zero feedback being a great pairing. 

As to why? I don't know as I am a Gardener and not an EE.

Bob

[BKDad]

Yeah, but...  

What are the open loop - which is not at all the same as zero feedback - amps that are considered to be great partners with Vandersteen loudspeakers?  Usually it's Ayre, Aesthetix, and Vandersteen. The output stages of the first two were originally designed by the very same guy.  So, Charley certainly applied some of the knowledge he attained over time to both with regard to noise rejection, stability, and so on.  All three examples are also balanced amplifiers.  Is that it?  They all use metal chassis, for that matter.  So, is the magic using a metal chassis?

My point is that maybe the absence of global feedback is not the main reason for the good performance.  Of course, it might be.  But, then, you'd think everybody would be going with that approach if it was that simple.  Instead, maybe it's because Charley and Ariel, Jim, Richard and Dean all applied good (actually much, much better than good) engineering practices to minimize noise and other disturbing factors in ways that other designers who normally use global feedback as a curative don't bother with.  After all, global feedback fixes everything, right?  

I'm hardly knocking those three examples of zero global feedback amplifiers.  They clearly are great designs and well executed products.  I'm just saying that there's more to the whole concept, just as the secret to Vandersteen loudspeakers isn't just the use of carbon fiber and balsa wood.  There's lots more involved.   I'm not going to sell these guys short by saying that the solution is no global feedback.  I do think that a lot of designers cut corners by relying entirely on the use of global feedback to solve all amplifier imperfections.  I'm not even clear that many global feedback amplifier designs are as carefully developed as what those guys mentioned above have done with their products.  

However, I stink at gardening.  

Anyway, this is probably a really dumb conversation to be having here.  Time to change the subject!

[Richard Vandersteen]

The M5-HPA can be used with many different speakers but not all.  You hook'em up and listen to them.  If there is some problem the amp will simply go into protect.  This would be a good indication even to an audiophile that its not a good combo!  If it keeps running and sounds great, it is a great combo!  The M7-HPA will work with many speakers but would need to be used with the SUB THREE or SUB NINE as the high-pass is fixed at 100Hz to get the bass back.

Feedback is a form of time distortion and Vandersteen's generally don't like that but there are exceptions for some people so again an audition will solve the discussion but not guarantee agreement.   In my 40 plus years in this hobby I have heard many systems using Vandersteen speakers and have been amazed  at how different they can sound.  Rooms do have an effect but this difference is beyond that.  What gives is people have taken an honest design and made the sound their own by using different combinations.  If you buy a pair of Vandersteen's and use our M7-HPA or M5-HPA all this means is you know what is perfect for ME and know what I was striving for vs. my reference recordings! YMMV.  It is great to read about these interactions between owners and I appreciate those who participate.  RV

[aubbrin570]

I just picked up a pair of 2ce signature 3's last night to replace my old Model 3's.  Initial response is more detail and less bass BUT I need to fill my stands with sand and install them.   Bolts that came with stands were actually too short so I picked some up today.   I was too impatient to wait so I cant make a great comparison, especially because of the 100 hour run-in required.

The biggest problem I have(which is the question for you all) is since Vandersteen recommends bi wire, and is pretty adamant about it in the manual, and  I use a Naim supernait 2 integrated  which insists on using a (single wire) Naim cable for speaker wire, which is 12' long for inductance properties, who is right?   It is basically two hifi brands that have different/opposite approaches. Talk about a mismatch?  Maybe look for an amp that is more compatible?  I have asked on the Naim forums and they are telling me single wire is the best and bi wire can actually hurt the amp and make the amp oscillate(at least the older ones did).   I understand with a grain of salt that Vandersteen is quite rare over the pond which is where "Naim central" is, so I was just curious what is the better rule to break? Naim's single 12' banana wire rule, or Vandersteen's bi wire only rule...if that makes sense.

The other problem is my Vandy's both have the screw type connections with "slots" to accept only spades that are less than 7/16"  I'm finding that spades that fit are rare no matter what brand cable in all my searches. Most have 1/2" wide or wider.   I have been using a biwire set that I bought and modified to fit the slots and now the naim nac a5 cable with jumpers but no matter what, I have to "rig it" to make it work.  Looking to declutter and have great connection. Many thanks for response.!

[BKDad]

FWIW, the Audioquest Castle Rock speaker cables I'm using fit the Vandersteen screw terminals just fine.

Yeah, the Castle Rocks aren't made any longer, but the spade terminals used on them are still shown on the AQ website and are still being sold by the various outlets for such things.

[ctsooner]

Audioquest makes the perfect sized connectors.  You can also look for the ring connectors if you want.  I'd get mine from Audioquest personally, but you can find them. Edit:  I posted this at the exact same time BK shared his info.  As he said, AQ sells them in two versions.  

[aubbrin570]

Ok good to know!! I will look into them..

BTW I wasnt thinking and didnt mean to steal from the OP here by changing topics.  I should create my own I suppose. Apologies!

[aubbrin570]

Not finding any suitable spades on AQ.  They all have the binding post that they fit ie 1/4"-3/16" but its the outside dimension that must be 7/16" or less...Do you know which one you have that works?

BTW, In preparation for this day, I searched everywhere for images of the rear panel of the 2CE sig 3's and found nothing.  Now that I have a pair, here you go!

[BKDad]

 

[ctsooner]

You can also go to an electronics connector site and purchase the ring connectors.  I know MANY who use those and they work great.  Even easier than spades.  They come in so many sizes 

 

Here are a set of copper that I'd try.  You would need to keep them clean, but they would give a near air tight connection with the gold plated brass screws that the 2's come with .  let us know what you decide to do

[GdnrBob]

All the spade speaker cables I have gotten from AQ fit the Vandy speaker terminals.

When in doubt, call or email AQ and ask for Alasdair. He knows what you'll need.

Bob

[TomicTime]

9 hours ago, aubbrin570 said:

I just picked up a pair of 2ce signature 3's last night to replace my old Model 3's.  Initial response is more detail and less bass BUT I need to fill my stands with sand and install them.   Bolts that came with stands were actually too short so I picked some up today.   I was too impatient to wait so I cant make a great comparison, especially because of the 100 hour run-in required.

The biggest problem I have(which is the question for you all) is since Vandersteen recommends bi wire, and is pretty adamant about it in the manual, and  I use a Naim supernait 2 integrated  which insists on using a (single wire) Naim cable for speaker wire, which is 12' long for inductance properties, who is right?   It is basically two hifi brands that have different/opposite approaches. Talk about a mismatch?  Maybe look for an amp that is more compatible?  I have asked on the Naim forums and they are telling me single wire is the best and bi wire can actually hurt the amp and make the amp oscillate(at least the older ones did).   I understand with a grain of salt that Vandersteen is quite rare over the pond which is where "Naim central" is, so I was just curious what is the better rule to break? Naim's single 12' banana wire rule, or Vandersteen's bi wire only rule...if that makes sense.

The other problem is my Vandy's both have the screw type connections with "slots" to accept only spades that are less than 7/16"  I'm finding that spades that fit are rare no matter what brand cable in all my searches. Most have 1/2" wide or wider.   I have been using a biwire set that I bought and modified to fit the slots and now the naim nac a5 cable with jumpers but no matter what, I have to "rig it" to make it work.  Looking to declutter and have great connection. Many thanks for response.!

I have used a NAIM Atom very successfully with Treo CT in a shotgun biwire. IF NAIM says your specific unit has issues run single wire w jumpers. On the issue of ring terminals, Vandy has those custom made. You should be able to order them thru your dealer as all parts orders go. No local dealer go factory. Remember these are custom gold plated relatively low volume parts so dont expect them at a buck.

[TomicTime]

the ring terminals from Vandy are great ! gas tight, low mass gold plated, but of a trick to solder....i hade my own shotgun biwire cables w Kimber and Vandy rings.

[ctsooner]

I forgot Richard sold those.  My bad.  I'd want gold plated rather than copper anyways.  Perfect fix.  Love this community.