2ce sig's amping and wiring

[jonathan]

So, I currently drive Vand 2ce's sig's from late 90's with my surround receiver (denon 3608) using the front channel for bass and surround rear channel for the tweeters. I think this may be a horizontal amping but because its all one reciever is may not be? it's how Denon says to do it. I used to just bi-wire off the front channel. I'm looking to see what an affordable way of getting into a real amp. So, some amps I’ve looked only have 1 set of speaker terminals so I would have to go back to bi-wire instead of bi-amping. Some other amps i see have an A and B speakers so how would you wire those? Should that bother me? Part of me think 2 amps to vertically bi-amp. Is there a good affordable amp that would get me started? Really looking to get some more mid range to what I have here and to get into amps etc. Thanks for your time and response

[stratocaster]

5 minutes ago, jonathan said:

So, I currently drive Vand 2ce's sig's from late 90's with my surround receiver (denon 3608) using the front channel for bass and surround rear channel for the tweeters. I think this may be a horizontal amping but because its all one reciever is may not be? it's how Denon says to do it. I used to just bi-wire off the front channel. I'm looking to see what an affordable way of getting into a real amp. So, some amps I’ve looked only have 1 set of speaker terminals so I would have to go back to bi-wire instead of bi-amping. Some other amps i see have an A and B speakers so how would you wire those? Should that bother me? Part of me think 2 amps to vertically bi-amp. Is there a good affordable amp that would get me started? Really looking to get some more mid range to what I have here and to get into amps etc. Thanks for your time and response

Hi @jonathan, I have dabbled extensively with biamping and biwiring with mono amps as well pairs of stereo amps, horizontal and vertical biamping with similar/disparate amps and also tried the method that you are utilizing. From my experience true biwiring has resulted in better sound than biamping from a receiver.  If you put biamping aside and a get a monster amp, you will get favorable results with biwiring. If you can get two identical amps (of lower wattage) for the price of one mega amp, you will be able to biamp but the headroom will be restricted to lower wattage/current capacity of the smaller amps. 
 

I am sure audio veterans on this forum might have some other suggestions that you can try.
 

 

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, jonathan said:

Part of me think 2 amps to vertically bi-amp. Is there a good affordable amp that would get me started? …

No many options that are affordable.
But having the speaker wires short should make a difference… so I would be going that vertical route if it was me.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Holmz

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, jonathan said:

So, I currently drive Vand 2ce's sig's from late 90's with my surround receiver (denon 3608) using the front channel for bass and surround rear channel for the tweeters. I think this may be a horizontal amping but because its all one reciever is may not be? it's how Denon says to do it. I used to just bi-wire off the front channel. I'm looking to see what an affordable way of getting into a real amp. So, some amps I’ve looked only have 1 set of speaker terminals so I would have to go back to bi-wire instead of bi-amping. Some other amps i see have an A and B speakers so how would you wire those? Should that bother me? Part of me think 2 amps to vertically bi-amp. Is there a good affordable amp that would get me started? Really looking to get some more mid range to what I have here and to get into amps etc. Thanks for your time and response

jonathan, most A/V Receivers sound mediocre but many don't notice because they are visually distracted anyway while watching a movie.  Two channel music is a very different scenario because the sound and imaging are the entire experience.  Both of these are compromised primarily because it is a lot to put into one box with one power supply.  They work OK if used as a Pre-amp Processor with the Center, Side and Rear speakers driven with the internal amps and using a set of Monos or a stereo amp for the Front speakers of higher quality.  A set of Monos or higher quality stereo amplifier Bi-wired will always sound better than bi-amping of any kind of similar cost.  Set your goals high and make every step in that direction (attacking the weakest link first) and before you know it your system will sing.  Many try to upgrade too much at one time with funds available which will lower the standard at the end of the day.  RV

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, jonathan said:

Is there a good affordable amp that would get me started

I have been looking at an Eu solution which is no where near affordable, even used. 🥲
(And I would have bought them if they were not snatched up.)

 

Somewhere else I posted that I used the Aiyama A-07 for the surround channels, and hands down it is the best value in the price range (IMO).
I am using a single channel from one of those A-07s for the VCC-5. (And you do NOT want the newer A-07 PRO version.)

I could envision using one for each speaker with the L and R channels fed by a Y connector to split the signal…  and then run the upper terminals off of say the Left channel and the lower posts from the Right channel.
I know it sounds kinda stupid, and using those amps with a HT system is probably also a bit avante garde with a Lyngdorf and Vandy HT speakers… but it seems to work for the moment.
Basically I wanted to see how bad the amp was for 2 channel… and ended up scratching my chin(s)… as it was surprisingly good.
And was sort of done on a lark to get me started with the HT side before I can select which amps to really get… But I think I am done, as now I mostly need to get the HT rack done.

 

You would not be hugely invested, and could always use them for a garage amp, or just give em away. 
Ideally one might find be some other used amp(s) either as a mono block or a vertical bi-amp.

It all sort of can go sideways if your source is starting out as XLR, but I just banged out a set of XLR to RCAs for the HT side.

https://www.aiyima.com/products/amplifier-aiyima-a07-tpa3255-2-0-channel-300wx2-hifi?variant=32922293272651
 

The power supplies are at the bottom of the page, and you probably would want the 36V 6A version, or a couple of the 48V ones… being 8 ohm speakers.

I convinced myself that it was not as good as the tube amp, but it was pretty damned good for $70.
I’d certainly do those amps myself, and add a used 2W or another sub and the Vandy crossover if I was on a ~$1k budget.

But sometimes one can find something else used that could also give surprising results is they are patient.
The speakers are pretty tolerant in terms of load.

The alternatives are generally going to be a bit more of an investment.

[GdnrBob]

20 hours ago, jonathan said:

Is there a good affordable amp that would get me started?

Perhaps an Ayre AX-7e integrated. Used they go for well under $2K.

For just an amp, maybe a Belles.

Both companies products seem to work really well with Vandersteen.

Bob

[jonathan]

14 hours ago, Holmz said:

I have been looking at an Eu solution which is no where near affordable, even used. 🥲
(And I would have bought them if they were not snatched up.)

 

Somewhere else I posted that I used the Aiyama A-07 for the surround channels, and hands down it is the best value in the price range (IMO).
I am using a single channel from one of those A-07s for the VCC-5. (And you do NOT want the newer A-07 PRO version.)

I could envision using one for each speaker with the L and R channels fed by a Y connector to split the signal…  and then run the upper terminals off of say the Left channel and the lower posts from the Right channel.
I know it sounds kinda stupid, and using those amps with a HT system is probably also a bit avante garde with a Lyngdorf and Vandy HT speakers… but it seems to work for the moment.
Basically I wanted to see how bad the amp was for 2 channel… and ended up scratching my chin(s)… as it was surprisingly good.
And was sort of done on a lark to get me started with the HT side before I can select which amps to really get… But I think I am done, as now I mostly need to get the HT rack done.

 

You would not be hugely invested, and could always use them for a garage amp, or just give em away. 
Ideally one might find be some other used amp(s) either as a mono block or a vertical bi-amp.

It all sort of can go sideways if your source is starting out as XLR, but I just banged out a set of XLR to RCAs for the HT side.

https://www.aiyima.com/products/amplifier-aiyima-a07-tpa3255-2-0-channel-300wx2-hifi?variant=32922293272651
 

The power supplies are at the bottom of the page, and you probably would want the 36V 6A version, or a couple of the 48V ones… being 8 ohm speakers.

I convinced myself that it was not as good as the tube amp, but it was pretty damned good for $70.
I’d certainly do those amps myself, and add a used 2W or another sub and the Vandy crossover if I was on a ~$1k budget.

But sometimes one can find something else used that could also give surprising results is they are patient.
The speakers are pretty tolerant in terms of load.

The alternatives are generally going to be a bit more of an investment.

Thanks and i did find these comments in here some where so it was your post im guessing. Thanks again as i feel its a good start for $200!

[jonathan]

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

Ayre AX-7e integrated. Used they go for well under $2K.

For just an amp, maybe a Belles.

yes i'll check those out for sure. Thanks

[jonathan]

18 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

most A/V Receivers sound mediocre but many don't notice because they are visually distracted anyway while watching a movie

I agree! i do have a 2 channel system by linn audio that is sweet but make my vandies cry! so they need some attention now. thanks!

[GdnrBob]

One thing to consider is that amps with Zero Feedback seem to work best with our speakers.

B

[Zarf]

Hi all. I am blessed with 2ceSigs as well. I am also thinking about the next amp to try, either as a tourist checking things out, or as an enthusiast looking to make significant progress. I have tried the inexpensive route, because of my intense childhood frugality training. 😏 On the other hand, I am interested in truly finding a better match for these Vandersteens. The Vandersteens are placed well in the room per the manuals recommendations, and the room is decent enough as a non-dedicated listening space.

I've owned a B&K ST 200.2, a McCormack DNA 0.5 Deluxe, a Forte 3 redone by Soderberg, a restored Adcom 5400, and a Pass X150. They've all had pros and cons, and sometimes I have wondered what the fuss was about. I've also had seat time with a redone Adcom 5802, and a Moscode 300.  I have used a Pass Aleph 5 but prefer that in a different small room system.  One of my pleasures has been learning about different pieces, and how they might work together to improve a listening experience.

This system is a Rotel RCD-951 via coaxial into a Cambridge CXN V2, with Audioquest Mackenzie into an Aric Audio Unlimited II.  The power amp is an unusual item loaned to me after refurb, as a "you've got to hear this" amp. It's a Precision Fidelity M8 hybrid, with a pair of 12AU7 at the front end, and a mosfet output section.  I bought it after week's audition.  Things get a little bloated in the bass with increasing volume, but at the best volume (80-85dB) it's one of the best sounds I've had in any of my systems.  I believe that there's more detail available, and that  a lower noise floor is possible.

What calls to me, as a potential and hopefully substantial upgrade, would be an Ayre V5xe, or the newer Belles Aria monoblocks. They can be found at times in the $2k range. The tourist in me wouldn't mind a restored Classe DR-9, as I do have a DR-6 to pair it with. I wonder that the Classe setup might be more of what I've been running through cycling gear, however. If I go much higher in price, I start to think about upgrading sources or speakers, so the amp is the puzzle.

[TomicTime]

i think if you want more precision and detail, $$$ spent toward Treo would be an upgrade….

Loved you post w history of great :-))))

best to you in music.

Jim

[ctsooner]

I’m with Jim 100%. 

[GdnrBob]

Well, as I said previously, Zero Feedback amps seem to make our speakers sing. Ayre would be a great move, as with the Belles. I own both and can recommend them heartily.

I also own the Treo's and can say that it would be another great move.

As a somewhat frugal (half)Asian, I too, have been loathe to spend money.

If it were me, I would try to improve all my amps/pre before indulging in the Treo's. That way, when you can make the upgrade, you'll have all the things you need already in place, and will be able to enjoy them to the fullest.

My 2.5 cents.

Bob

[TomicTime]

$ in transducers , they have the toughest job to do…..

[Zarf]

(I should have gone for Bob's non-CT Treos. I knew it.)

Maybe it's time to sell the third car. That'll free up some funding.  I think I'll give up the refurbished DR-9 idea, too. What about the Belles monos vs. the Ayre V5xe? Does more modern with this one as well?

[GdnrBob]

19 hours ago, Zarf said:

I should have gone for Bob's non-CT Treos. I knew it.

Call John Rutan, he might still have them.

He said he had a buyer, but I haven't heard anything, yet.

I have his number if you need it.

Bob

[TomicTime]

work the transducers !,,, Treo is much more revealing speaker because RV had more $ to put into a lower noise floor cabinet within a cabinet….. Just my $1.50…..

Best to all as we chase musical happiness 

Jim

[GdnrBob]

On 3/12/2023 at 12:29 PM, TomicTime said:

RV had more $ to put into a lower noise floor cabinet within a cabinet

I concur.

I owned the 3a sigs prior to buying the non-CT Treo's from @ctsooner, and I could hear the difference immediately. A more relaxed and refined sound. The bareboned 1,2 and 3 speakers provide a lot for the money, but the cabinets of the Treo, Quatro, Kento, etc. really make all the parts sing. And, when you understand the added cost, it seems that they are quite a bargain for such a product. 

Preaching to the Choir...

Bob