Turntable mats

[John Gallup]

If there's already a thread on this topic, let me know and I'll cancel this one.

So I've got my new Rega Planar 10 and am very happy with it. The supplied mat is a white felt item about 1 mm thick, and so flimsy that on one occasion it adhered to a record and got put away in the album jacket with the vinyl. I had previously used a 5-mm Funk Firm Achromat, and although I can use it with the new turntable,  its thickness shortens the spindle so that the record weight no longer centers itself. To the extent I'm able to measure the stylus rake angle with my cheap-o USB microscope, either mat puts the stylus within the Fremer-directed 91-94°  range. Here's what it looks like with the 5-mm Achromat.

I'd appreciate any recommendations or experiences with various mats.

[Oregon]

The Music Hall cork mat makes sense to me as the record is supported at the center and toward the edge.

[BKDad]

Dumb question - have you tried it without any mat?

Stein Music makes some mats that are way skinnier than the Funk Firm product.  A friend of mine uses one on his Basis table and likes it.  That doesn't mean it'd work well on your Rega Planar 10 or that you'd like it.  But, at least the record weight should fit.  😀

Stein Music Perfect Interface.

[Oregon]

34 minutes ago, BKDad said:

Dumb question - have you tried it without any mat?

Yes I prefer the sound of the table with the mat. While the table sounds fine without the mat, I use it mainly to prevent the record from slipping.

[John Gallup]

2 hours ago, BKDad said:

Dumb question - have you tried it without any mat?

Inadvertently, yes! And it works fine, but I'm one of those people who has a serious tweakness, you might say.

[BKDad]

2 hours ago, John Gallup said:

Inadvertently, yes! And it works fine, but I'm one of those people who has a serious tweakness, you might say.

Well, perhaps the ultimate tweak is no mat - hot rodding, if you like.

[Steve Edwards]

John,

I replaced the OEM felt mat on my LP12 with the Collaro mat.  The thickness is so close to the Linn, no VTA adjustment was necessary.  It’s not night and day, but I did hear a small improvement in detail.  Although, when the humidity is low in winter, there can be occasional static issues.  With your proximity to the Pacific, those may be significantly reduced. 
 

Play on

Steve

[ctsooner]

I tried a couple of mats on my Basis (when I owned one) and liked it best with no mat and it wasn't close.  I'm sure it's all based on the design of the table etc...I spoke to AJ about it years ago and he said he designs it to be used as is.  I have found that like Vandersteen speakers, it's often best to purchase them based on what the designer wants you to hear.  

[Boom Boom]

On 6/5/2023 at 11:18 AM, ctsooner said:

I tried a couple of mats on my Basis (when I owned one) and liked it best with no mat and it wasn't close.  I'm sure it's all based on the design of the table etc...I spoke to AJ about it years ago and he said he designs it to be used as is.  I have found that like Vandersteen speakers, it's often best to purchase them based on what the designer wants you to hear.  

I purchased the mat and clamp system that was sold for my SOTA Sapphire. SOTA called it the Supermat and Clamp system. I've not use it with the rubber mat that came standard on the table. I no longer have that or the original TT box and packing materials (long story).

My ProJect RM-10 came with a thick acrylic platter that was designed to be coupled directly to the vinyl and weighted down with the heavy record clamp.

Back in the day the 2nd turntable I owned was a Thorens belt drive with its arm and a Shure V15 P Mount. I swapped the standard plastic mat with a Mission Sorbo mat and used the Mission clamp. I sold this rig to a friend when I got my SOTA. I remember listening to it through his modest system and it sounded great.

Trying aftermarket turntable accessories to get better sound is part of our hobby. The last thing I noticed was the use of cork as a TT mat material. I've not heard these. If they are inexpensive then you might try before you buy. If the retailer has much faith in what they offer, they should offer a satisfaction guarantee.

I'm curious, please let us know what you decide.

[Stringreen]

I have a VPI Superscoutmaster with heavy metal platter, periphery clamp and spindle weight.....I like the sound as is....tried many mats which all muddy the perspective.....just my take.

[John Gallup]

43 minutes ago, Boom Boom said:

I'm curious, please let us know what you decide.

I went to T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa yesterday, mainly to hear J R Boisclair  (of WAM Engineering) give a presentation on cartridge alignment. He really knows how to explain complex factors in comprehensible language, and in an entertaining way. I asked him about mats, and he said three things I can remember (and am probably not conveying exactly):

1.  Anything that introduces an additional joint and/or compliance factor in the mechanical structure of record/cart/tonearm necessarily also introduces complexity and/or errors as well. Most mats have some degree of compliance of course, but he also allowed as how the custom shims they will make to correct the alignment of your cartridge (for $450) are also a "joint" in this sense, but worth the trouble in this case. 

2.  Of the six or seven factors that influence cartridge alignment, stylus rake angle is the least well-defined, although 91-92° is the best available standard. Mat thicknesses have very little effect on it.

3.  The vertical tracking angle of most carts is way, way above the 20° virtually all records are cut at.

Here's an image from their website depicting zenith error, described in the linked video

So right now, my situation is I'm going matless, because the wooly Rega mat is probably less than a millimeter thick anyway, and I'm unable with my primitive USB microscope to capture a definitive image measuring SRA. I've still got a 5-mm Funk Firm Achromat and it sounds good, but it also lifts the platter surface so high the cueing lever doesn't work.

And while I'm at it, I'll offer this unvarnished opinion:  T.H.E. Show was not very well run. They let me in for free because I'm a veteran which was cool, but it was $25 to park at the hotel. (One-day admission would otherwise have been $29 at the door.) The organizers didn't provide any map of which exhibits were in which room, and the converted guest rooms were so tiny and crowded that a decent setup was probably all but impossible.

Or maybe shows just don't work for me; this is my third one and I'm not really able to get an impression of what a system sounds like in those cramped conditions, particularly if the music on offer when I enter the room is too loud or something I don't like. One room had Emerson Lake & Palmer's "Lucky Man" playing when I came in; I do like that song and it sounded impressive, but electronic solos are so unrelated to wood/gut/steel/vocal chord music that it's impossible to say it whether the reproduction was "accurate" or not.

I agree with you that tinkering with aftermarket stuff is an enjoyable part of the hobby. 

[Steve Edwards]

John,

Was RV there?  I didn't make it this year.

[John Gallup]

1 hour ago, Steve Edwards said:

John,

Was RV there?  I didn't make it this year.

Don't know, since I never found a list of exhibitors. Didn't see him around, but I also didn't visit every room.

[Delkat]

I was there on Friday and they had all the rooms and vendors displayed on big posters at multiple locations.  The rooms were kind of scattered on multiple levels and wings of the hotel. The big guys had big rooms.  They were also giving out booklets with all the vendors and rooms listed but maybe they ran out. I heard a lot of complaints about the parking, the lack of service at the hotel for guests staying there and they had some really long lines to get in on Friday. Not sure if they fixed that on Saturday and Sunday. 
 

There was no Vandersteen presence.  It seems like a lot of work to exhibit at these shows. There are so many these days I’m not sure it makes sense. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Delkat

[Stringreen]

the picture of a zenith error of the stylus.....should be returned for repair or replacement

[John Gallup]

1 hour ago, Stringreen said:

the picture of a zenith error of the stylus.....should be returned for repair or replacement

Boisclair says that so far, manufacturers have been willing to correct errors on carts he analyzes at no cost to the owner. But they apparently have to be in warranty.

[Gsal]

I may have said it before but I'll say it again, Wally Tools are a must for correct cartridge/arm alignment. I have used J.R.'s services and tools for two carts and arms so far and plan on sending him my Lyra Etna Lambda for inspection when it arrives. The improvement in sound and peace of mind are priceless. And J. R. is a great guy. Always available to offer assistance. The industry needs more people like him.

[Huang]

I sent my Lyra Delos in when new. I'm happy with JR's work but I wish I had broken it in prior to sending it in. It sound good but I am concerned things might have changed. Nothing I can hear just my anal nature.;

[DC-93]

I like the old days when you put a record on the 1979 Technics turntable with the Stanton 681EEE cartridge and then enjoyed the music.  

Something to be said for simplicity. 

[Oregon]

On 6/11/2023 at 1:39 PM, John Gallup said:

I went to T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa yesterday, mainly to hear J R Boisclair  (of WAM Engineering) give a presentation on cartridge alignment. He really knows how to explain complex factors in comprehensible language, and in an entertaining way. I asked him about mats, and he said three things I can remember (and am probably not conveying exactly):

1.  Anything that introduces an additional joint and/or compliance factor in the mechanical structure of record/cart/tonearm necessarily also introduces complexity and/or errors as well. Most mats have some degree of compliance of course, but he also allowed as how the custom shims they will make to correct the alignment of your cartridge (for $450) are also a "joint" in this sense, but worth the trouble in this case. 

2.  Of the six or seven factors that influence cartridge alignment, stylus rake angle is the least well-defined, although 91-92° is the best available standard. Mat thicknesses have very little effect on it.

3.  The vertical tracking angle of most carts is way, way above the 20° virtually all records are cut at.

Here's an image from their website depicting zenith error, described in the linked video

So right now, my situation is I'm going matless, because the wooly Rega mat is probably less than a millimeter thick anyway, and I'm unable with my primitive USB microscope to capture a definitive image measuring SRA. I've still got a 5-mm Funk Firm Achromat and it sounds good, but it also lifts the platter surface so high the cueing lever doesn't work.

And while I'm at it, I'll offer this unvarnished opinion:  T.H.E. Show was not very well run. They let me in for free because I'm a veteran which was cool, but it was $25 to park at the hotel. (One-day admission would otherwise have been $29 at the door.) The organizers didn't provide any map of which exhibits were in which room, and the converted guest rooms were so tiny and crowded that a decent setup was probably all but impossible.

Or maybe shows just don't work for me; this is my third one and I'm not really able to get an impression of what a system sounds like in those cramped conditions, particularly if the music on offer when I enter the room is too loud or something I don't like. One room had Emerson Lake & Palmer's "Lucky Man" playing when I came in; I do like that song and it sounded impressive, but electronic solos are so unrelated to wood/gut/steel/vocal chord music that it's impossible to say it whether the reproduction was "accurate" or not.

I agree with you that tinkering with aftermarket stuff is an enjoyable part of the hobby. 

Just discovered this response...WOW! That "degree" of misalignment surprises me. This may be normal within cartridge manufacturing. Hmmm...

 

Thanks for sharing,

Cody

[TomicTime]

This why.. it’s advisable to stick with the few cartridge manufacturers with both scale and very tight quality control - or a design that contributes to same…. I have a short list and while not without the occasional flaw are pretty consistent… very importantly most Vandersteen dealers who are typically well versed in analog tend to carry THOSE brands……