Help needed for 2.1 to 5.2

[Holmz]

And later 120k tulips at the Araluen Botanical Gardens in Rolistone.

set amongst natives and a variety of other types.

Holmz Van Der Tulip

 

[ctsooner]

I had such a great time in Perth. Man I’d love to go back someday, however the woman I befriended named her son after me (middle name and all) and has kept in touch a bit since the mid 80’s when the ship pulled in. She’s a former lingerie model (seriously) but I’m happily married and have zero interest lol. For that reason I’m out. Not coming to visit Randy. Ha. 

[Holmz]

I posted 2 flower pictures…

But I see no pictures of models ?🥰

[GdnrBob]

Looks like the pics came through, albeit on two posts.

To be honest, I have no idea what those flowering plants are (not the tulips!-Though the backdrop is a bit weird).

 

So, you are mounting the VLR's in the ceiling?

B

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

Looks like the pics came through, albeit on two posts.

😃
 

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

To be honest, I have no idea what those flowering plants are (not the tulips!-Though the backdrop is a bit weird).

A bunch of native flowers in the first (King’s Park) photo, including kangaroo paws, and grass trees.
 

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

So, you are mounting the VLR's in the ceiling?

B

 

We’ll see.
One pair of the VSMs will be for the  position 4/5 (Left rear and right rear).

If I can make the ceiling ones get past the WAF, then YES ! the other pair of VSMs will live on high, on the ceiling. Like a Blamange song, if any one else remembers them from the mid 80s. 
And some sort of diffuser or absorber in a semi attractive frame could help on that front, and probably a lighter colour of fabric.

But I also need to measure the room modes, and I want to try and suck up the bass modes, but there is not enough floor space for going wild with tube traps.. maybe room for 1.

Hence if I could suck up the 11’ mode (which might be double that)… then it could help a bit… but I need some measurements, and did not have time on this latest break.

I’m sitting in Melbourne, awaiting a flight, so it’ll be nose to the grind stone for a while.
However the TT rebuild parts arrived, and I need to mount the new (used) arm, and the new cart should be at the post office, so I have work to do.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Holmz

[GdnrBob]

Ahh, first world problems, I see.😝

Mounting the speakers on the ceiling sounds interesting. Talk about being 'immersed' in sound.

I never listened to Blancmange. I would cue it up now, but Roberta Flack is 'Killing Me Softly', so I will do it later.- She really had it.

Oh crap, the Qobuz Playlist just moved onto some Black Eyed Peas. My Zen has evaporated-Though after a couple of minutes, I am starting to get into the groove...

Bob

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

I never listened to Blancmange. I would cue it up now, but Roberta Flack is 'Killing Me Softly', so I will do it later.- She really had it.

Roberta is great.

Blancmange is new wave with what seems like an Arabic influence. 
(Probably not everyone’s cup-o-tea, but like, Madness, Oingo Boingo, Devo, etc. seems like it fit that brief time of the gendre.)

Those are solely for the HT side of things.
Hence I have been considering the Atmasphere Class-D amps.

I might chuck the KT120 tubes into the PrimaLuna, I got them before it all went mad with tube prices.
Maybe I could convince myself that the tubes look like a bit like a city with the minarets (with enough claret).

[GdnrBob]

I have to say, glowing tubes are pretty cool- well, pretty hot actually.😈

B

[Holmz]

I posted this elsewhere today…

Quote

Almost always I turn on the preamp, the amp, the TV and the DVD (which does the NetFlix).
In any case it takes 90 seconds for the preamp to switch to “On”.

Today I turned it all on and as I sat down the TV audio started up almost immediately.
I thought, “Damn it, how did its volume get turned back on?”
So I went to adjust it and it was at 0 or maybe 1 (out of 100)… and I thought how the hell can the TV be making the sound.

Perplexed… I looked over and saw that I had forgotten to turn the preamp off last night, or maybe I took more than 90 seconds...

That center image is pretty convincing. I was not expecting the stereo speakers to be on, and I would have sworn it was coming from the TV.

 

[Holmz]

Last few days I have been haunched over the soldering iron like Quasimodo, just no Notre Dame smoke.
And I got ~8 cables made up as 5x XLR—>RCA, and 3 XLR—>XLR.
It is a bit of a visual mess, but now the decor and sound work can start.

 

5.0 (Current):

I left the 2C and 2W at the other house, so I am using VSMs in the front and side surrounds in a 5.0 setup, and the VCC-5 in the middle.
At some point the 2C and 2W will be integrated in, and the extra VSMs will make it a 5.2.2.

It is a bit of front end heavy set up ($s wise), with the AVP going into an old NAD 3220 for LF/RF, and AIYAMA A07 for the VCC-5, and LS/RS, and more AIYAMA for tactile transducers and future Atmos speakers.

It sounds pretty decent, even though it is with the TV in a non-ideal spot. But getting it hooked up is a good step.
The AVP does a room correction, so it rattled through the speakers and did some DSP magic, which took 20 minutes, but felt like an hour. 

I was surprised at the amount of bass that the VSM-1s and VCC have.
And also how quiet the LS and RS were, so I may need to look at the gain on those.

 

_________________________________

All the below is future effort.

5.2 (TBD):

In Australia a subwoofer (In a vehicle) is often referred to as a “Doof Doof Box.” 
I still need to shove the subs into boxes and put those out into the room.

I have had a pair of subs for a while (12”) and a couple of passive radiators, and a pair of Hypex FA502 amps.

The spec on the VCC-5 say 50Hz - 30kHz , and the VSM-1 specs  say 60Hz - 21kHz.
I guess I’ll try 20-60 for the sub, or 16-60??

It will be at this point I’ll do some room measurements and placement of where the subs should ideal go, and decor wise whether they can go, and any bass traps.

 

5.2 (with transducers acting like a 5.4) (TBD):

I probably need another 2x XLR—>RCA as I got a single “Butt Shaker” brand tactile transducer, to see if I can attach it to the sofa.
If that works, then I can see if the minister of finance wants one for each seat.
Mostly it is for the HT effects without overly shaking the room and neighbourhood, like a car is driving by with a Doof Doof box.

 

5.5.2

Once the 2C pair and the single 2W arrive, then I can move the LF/RF VSM-1 pair to the ceiling.
So it will be a 2.1 in two channel, with a 5.5.2 in HT mode.

[GdnrBob]

Glad to hear the VSM's are working for you.

B

[Holmz]

3 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

Glad to hear the VSM's are working for you.

B

Yessiree - and by some grace (or luck) the hand made XLR—>RCAs going into those $70 amp have no hiss or hum happening.

[Holmz]

I am streaming from the iPad via Spotify.

The iPad is “bluetoothed” to the LG OLED.
And the ARC is feeding the AVP.
Those little VSMs are actually very enjoyable as a LF/RF pair.

If I could do it in 5.1 it might be even better!

I was actually in tears with a few other songs earlier today, before I hit the woodworking tools for a few hours.
So I was almost in tears again, but tears from a sore back and knees…

If anyone has some inside knowledge of AVPs and how to set them up for music, then I would be all ears.
 

 

[GdnrBob]

11 hours ago, Holmz said:

If anyone has some inside knowledge of AVPs and how to set them up for music, then I would be all ears.

-Hopefully, it won't result in more tears.😝

And, what is an AVP?

 

B

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

-Hopefully, it won't result in more tears.😝

I got about 3/4 done on the that floor getting it flat, and the varnish off yesterday.
So I am off to the shops to get more consumables after coffee.
I should be getting a layer of oil on it today before I fly out mid week… and it is “MY” study, so I want to get the walls painted and my work desk in there before the new year.
(Tears of joy)

 

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

And, what is an AVP?

 

B

An AVP is a home theatre AVR (Audio Visual Receiver), but as components so it is only a preamp.
Which makes an AVR is like an integrated amp, and the AVP is analogous to the audio preamp.

And… hence my use of the $70 AIYAMA class-D amps for surround and center channels.
Plus I do not need to run massive cables around, only XLRs.
Ideally the amps would have balanced connection and a 12V trigger.
But I wanted to start somewhere, and the Topping version was broken out of the box and hissing, and complaint abound with their return policy.

Most people run an AVR. The ones that are running an AVP usually have a lot more expensive amps on them… but it makes sound OK for starting out. There is a Roon end point built into the AVP, and it is reputed to be pretty good, so I have more work to do. 

 

That Concierto de Aranjuez track was so stunning it was scary.

[Holmz]

The surround sound is working pretty good for us.

The pup also goes ballistic when a dog is on the TV screen, growling and carrying on ‘like a pork chop’.
And I got a report that the puppy occasionally jumps behind/beside the sofa looking for what is making the sounds, especially when there’s dog back from the side… then she is off like a flash to investigate.

It is the puppy’s equivalent test of Richard’s “scraping shovels in concrete and pounding of boxes”.

[Holmz]

The room is in pretty rough shape, but… the setup until the table is done, and until the floors get refinished.

And the puppy stops dragging clothes from room to room.

[GdnrBob]

Looking good, but you need something on the wall opposite the TV.

But...

Pink doggy bed with a blue/white oriental rug? 😣

Bob

[Holmz]

9 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

Looking good, but you need something on the wall opposite the TV.

But...

Pink doggy bed with a blue/white oriental rug? 😣

Bob

Don’t get me started, I complain about going to IKEA, and I think that the meatballs are now planet based.
The ginger snaps are still OK though.
But other than that I am busting to leave before I even get there.

The rug came from IKEA… and is still curled up on the edges in a “send me to hospital” fashion.
(It was not my choice… and it too, like the meat balls, is some synthetic deal.)

The pup however… like that pink bed, and likes walks on the beach amongst the kelp.
And while looking like a robot, is completely organic.

 

[ctsooner]

Screw going off the rails. That puppy is wayyyy to cute. I’ll find a pic of our puppy Sir a Oliver to post. Have to. Sorry 

[ctsooner]

 1.5 yo Ollie with his older adopted brother Coby who’s 9. Coby is a former Canadian champion who’s a retired stud. He’s he half brother of our former forever home Yorkie, Canadian Champion Divine Selene of Adanta. We lost Baby during COVID lock down. 
 

 

oh, Ollie is the 12lb Anti Yorkie and Coby is 5.5.  They both love being in the room with music   

[Holmz]

9 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Screw going off the rails. That puppy is wayyyy to cute. I’ll find a pic of our puppy Sir a Oliver to post. Have to. Sorry 

There is a carrying bag that Haus Boss got for her.
I must not be too comfortable with my feminine side, so picked up a tool bag.

She ‘knows the drill’ when we go to shops, but is good at nuzzling the zipper open, and will only tolerate about 10 minutes of it.

[Holmz]

Heaps of channels on the AVP:

 

[Holmz]

 

In the Lyngdorf AVP there is the ability to have up to 8 “Parametric EQ” (PEQ) settings for each “Speaker Voicing.”

I poked in PEQ settings to smooth out the VCC-5 in frequency response.
And it does seem to sound a bit better for HT.
(The dialogue is in fact clearer.)

In someways this is a bit odd, as even with subtitled movies, I find I like to have enough volume … I do not know why that it is, but I seem to do that if the sound is low, even though I am reading the words.
 

Now I Just need to figure out if I can apply different PEQs to the center, LF/RF and surrounds. 
So I’ll dive into the manual later in the week.

In case anyone else is doing HT and wants to fiddle around… Here are the PEQs I gathered.
(A French fellow living in China, and another fellow from Switzerland computed them…)

 

VSM-PEQ: 
I’ll need to try and generate these.

2C-PEQ:

Quote

EQ for Vandersteen 2c computed from ErinsAudioCorner data
Preference Score 4.4 with EQ 5.3
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.13
Dated: 2021-11-17-21:28:29

Preamp: -0.2 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc  1384 Hz Gain -1.99 dB Q 0.06
Filter  2: ON PK Fc  1194 Hz Gain -1.81 dB Q 3.00
Filter  3: ON PK Fc  3301 Hz Gain +1.98 dB Q 3.00
Filter  4: ON PK Fc   273 Hz Gain -1.45 dB Q 3.00
Filter  5: ON PK Fc   509 Hz Gain +2.02 dB Q 2.72

VCC-5 PEQs (many):
 

It was recommended I use the 3 PEQ setting at the end, but I used this one:

Quote

Vandersteen VCC-5 APO EQ Score 96000Hz
November032021-111208
Preamp: -1.5 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 64.38, -3.59, 5.88
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 119.51, -1.64, 5.36
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 511.41, -2.99, 1.76
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 998.13, -2.45, 1.44
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2030.90, 2.30, 4.80
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 4752.18, -1.69, 5.12
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 11254.55, -2.20, 0.47

 

 

Quote

Vandersteen VCC-5 APO EQ LW 96000Hz
November032021-112113

Preamp: -1.6 dB

Filter 1: ON PK Fc 64.13,    -3.34,    4.17
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 118.36,    -1.62,    4.24
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 531.83,    -2.99,    2.08
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 993.57,    -2.21,    2.16
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2067.04,    1.80,    3.31
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 4837.86,    -1.85,    3.47

Quote

EQ for Vandersteen VCC-5 computed from ASR data
Preference Score 4.0 with EQ 5.9
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.13
Dated: 2021-11-03-06:29:24

Preamp: -12.8 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc  4797 Hz Gain -3.13 dB Q 0.05
Filter  2: ON PK Fc    67 Hz Gain -1.81 dB Q 3.00
Filter  3: ON PK Fc   124 Hz Gain -0.50 dB Q 3.00
Filter  4: ON PK Fc    66 Hz Gain -0.50 dB Q 3.00
Filter  5: ON PK Fc    33 Hz Gain +8.00 dB Q 1.77
Filter  6: ON PK Fc    61 Hz Gain -2.25 dB Q 3.00
Filter  7: ON PK Fc    30 Hz Gain +5.96 dB Q 2.59
Filter  8: ON PK Fc  2126 Hz Gain +3.05 dB Q 2.51
Filter  9: ON PK Fc  8284 Hz Gain -1.56 dB Q 1.22

 

Quote

EQ for Vandersteen VCC-5 computed from ASR data
Preference Score 4.0 with EQ 5.3
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.13
Dated: 2021-11-03-06:38:26

Preamp: -0.7 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc  7055 Hz Gain -2.52 dB Q 0.05
Filter  2: ON PK Fc  9248 Hz Gain -1.83 dB Q 1.36
Filter  3: ON PK Fc  2149 Hz Gain +3.00 dB Q 2.12
Filter  4: ON PK Fc  3511 Hz Gain +1.15 dB Q 4.00
Filter  5: ON PK Fc   240 Hz Gain +1.85 dB Q 4.00
Filter  6: ON PK Fc   571 Hz Gain -1.63 dB Q 1.98
Filter  7: ON PK Fc  5263 Hz Gain -1.05 dB Q 2.77
Filter  8: ON PK Fc 11620 Hz Gain -0.58 dB Q 4.00
Filter  9: ON PK Fc  7260 Hz Gain -0.50 dB Q 4.00

 

Quote

EQ for Vandersteen VCC-5 computed from ASR data
Preference Score 4.0 with EQ 5.0
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.13
Dated: 2021-11-03-06:42:28

Preamp: -0.7 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc  7640 Hz Gain -2.54 dB Q 0.05
Filter  2: ON PK Fc  9244 Hz Gain -1.81 dB Q 1.37
Filter  3: ON PK Fc  2152 Hz Gain +3.00 dB Q 2.11

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Holmz

[Stringreen]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:24 AM, Holmz said:

I have owned a pair of 2C since around 1985 ish.
So it is  probably a good investment as I have never though of replacing them.
I’ve been through a PSE amp, then some VTLs, and just got a used PrimaLuna from a friend (who was also the same friend that the VTLs came from)

At home we just got an OLED LG, and the audio is pretty dire.

The Mrs has some hyperacucis,  and simultaneously we both have hard time with hearing the dialogue from some movies and series.

The other problem with the 2C is the WAF, so I might try and get some brown socks/grills to better blend with the general dark brown wood in the room.

It is looking like I should use a VCC2 or a VCC5 rather than a VCC1.
Does anyone have dimensions for the VCC5? It seems a bit deep, and that was part of the WAF with the 2C… When I have them set up well then the house boss thinks that they are too far into the room.  That is the point where the sound gets a magical depth that seems like it is coming from outside of the living room wall. Which also gets some comments about not being able to even hear the speakers, and they don’t sound like speakers should sound… because you cannot hear them.
Maybe the VCC2 is a more correct choice being able to sit a bit further back?
However we will likely have a console below the TV, and move the TV to a wall mount. Then we can shove the AV gear into the cabinet and put the center channel on top… hence the size question.

If I go 5.2 then likely it will be the VSM1s, but the room is 14’ TV to sofa wall, and 18’ wide with another 12’ for an attached dining room.
Ceilings are 11am high and it is on wooden floor, so at least it makes running cables a bit easier… (i.e. under the floor).
So the VSM1 pair would be ~4 feet directly left and right of the sofa’s seated position. If I shove them, into the corner then they be maybe 6-10” back.

What is a sensible approach here?
Most of the AV forums seem to push Warfdales, KEF, Klipsh, etc… however I do not mind that even in 2 channel mode the TV seems like the sound is coming from the screen rather than the speakers.
I know it is probably a bit of an echo chamber of confirmation bias here, but I think I could do worse… and I have had the 2Cs for so long I am attached to them at this point.

Another friend with Dunlavy speakers commented that there were only a handful of speakers that where designed time/phase correct (Dunlavy, Spica, Vandersteen…). The VTL friend also has a pair of Spica’s in addition to the ML planners… so we all sort of like similar sounds.

The house is new to us, so there is also a bit to do for treatments that are WAF acceptable. A curtain over the window is an easy sell, as is a rug on the hardwood floor.

If you get earphones to watch your tv, you'll be amazed at how much better/clearer the sound is. ....not in the hifi sense, but just in the pleasure it will bring  (I have Sennheiser HDR 175)