Quatros, M5-HPAs, and a community challenge

[Stringreen]

My 5A's have a balanced HP5 high pass filter.  There is a hum ...then Richard told me to run a lamp cord etc. wire from the filter to the wall outlet  screw.  It's now dead quiet even with the volume way up.  The headphone connected to its dedicated amp is dead silent without any ground wire.

[Richard Vandersteen]

42 minutes ago, Stringreen said:

My 5A's have a balanced HP5 high pass filter.  There is a hum ...then Richard told me to run a lamp cord etc. wire from the filter to the wall outlet  screw.  It's now dead quiet even with the volume way up.  The headphone connected to its dedicated amp is dead silent without any ground wire.

This trick only works with AYRE equipment and solves hum that is in the speaker.  RV

[TomicTime]

I think having the neighbor bagpiper play out of phase 60-120 hz hum and things should clear right up in one channel anyway…

[Richard Vandersteen]

55 minutes ago, Holmz said:

But one of them is quiet… are they on the same circuit?

This is likely because once you have high line distortion there is variation in the core of the transformers which the vender makes us sign off on (it is the nature of the beast)!  We can't eat them at $285.00 bucks each when the only long-term solution is to block the DC component properly for the power available in problem situations.  I do believe we will need to make this part of production eventually because our power is not going to improve, it is only going to get worse.   I am not prepared to take the sonic hit until the problem become more prevalent.  RV

[BabySneaks]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

But one of them is quiet… are they on the same circuit?

Hi Holmz. They are on the same circuit. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but the idea is interference can come from other circuits in the house. If the hum is still going with the other circuits turned off, I will then disconnect everything I can from the circuit that covers the listening room, except for the amps, of course, and see what I hear.

But please let me know if I am off-base here. I have almost convinced my wife to help me because this will be an exciting adventure. The circuit board is in the basement garage, so that would be a lot of trips up and down the stairs.

And GdnrBob,  you are correct -- the hum followed the amp when I swapped them. I plugged the humming amp into the power cord for the quiet one, and the hummer still hummed. I plugged the quiet one into the power cord where the humming amp had been, and it remained quiet.

I will post what I find with the great circuit board extravaganza of 2022, but we may not get to it for a day or two.

Thanks!

[BabySneaks]

2 minutes ago, TomicTime said:

I think having the neighbor bagpiper play out of phase 60-120 hz hum and things should clear right up in one channel anyway…

I will ask him tomorrow to try this. He owes me because his stupid human trick when he is drunk is to try to play while bouncing on the trampoline we have in our backyard.

[TomicTime]

Dude, this thread is headed to legendary status ! the visual had me spitting Java !,,,,,

[GdnrBob]

So, something like a power conditioner won't help?- Not that I would want to put amps on power conditioners, but put this out there as a possible cure.

B

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

Since he swapped them and the hum followed the amp, it seems the issue is with the amp's sensitivity to DC on the line.

B

The problem is on 1 of the 2 amps.

Given we did not designed the amp, we have to assume that the asymmetry is the best hypothesis.
It would be better to know for sure that the power has DC. 
And the “good amp” abides the power.
I would not be buying any power conditioners, until I was able to confirm 100% that the power was the causal mechanism.

I was thinking blocking cap, but then I saw that RV already mentioned that.

Maybe the transformer could be better mechanically isolated in the chassis?

Using the 230–> 115v transformer… in the old house I put it in the garage and ran a 3 foot extension cord through the outlet… but I am somewhat of a Neanderthal or maybe Aboriginal .
 

 

22 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

So, something like a power conditioner won't help?- Not that I would want to put amps on power conditioners, but put this out there as a possible cure.

B

It depends… not that PS audio one I hope?

There was one mentioned (in this forum) where they have a transformer that is tying the center tap to ground. SO it is basically a DC blocker.

It was the only one where they did not resort to Harry Potter and Hermonie descriptions of how it worked.
(So it looked good to me.)

Edited March 15, 2022 by Holmz

[TomicTime]

gosh….it’s not like we don’t actually have THE designer of the amp…on this thread…..

[Holmz]

41 minutes ago, BabySneaks said:

Hi Holmz. They are on the same circuit. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but the idea is interference can come from other circuits in the house. If the hum is still going with the other circuits turned off, I will then disconnect everything I can from the circuit that covers the listening room, except for the amps, of course, and see what I hear.

But please let me know if I am off-base here. I have almost convinced my wife to help me because this will be an exciting adventure. The circuit board is in the basement garage, so that would be a lot of trips up and down the stairs.

And GdnrBob,  you are correct -- the hum followed the amp when I swapped them. I plugged the humming amp into the power cord for the quiet one, and the hummer still hummed. I plugged the quiet one into the power cord where the humming amp had been, and it remained quiet.

I will post what I find with the great circuit board extravaganza of 2022, but we may not get to it for a day or two.

Thanks!

I would try the “other” 220v leg with both amps.
Just get a long extension cord.
If it is an imbalance, the one side should/maybe better than the other.

I would be more tempted to get some rubber gloves one pull the cover off and do the laying on of the hands to feel out the vibrations like a faith the healer
But the voltages can send someone on a one way trip.
And I do not know if something like a neoprene layer is recommended as a way to decouple of the transformer.

Even just looking into the chassis may yield some insight? Perhaps something is fouling the decoupling that is already there?

Edited March 15, 2022 by Holmz

[Holmz]

38 minutes ago, TomicTime said:

gosh….it’s not like we don’t actually have THE designer of the amp…on this thread…..

Yeah - my point is…

• If RV says he is 100% certain it is imbalance then that is great.
• If RV says he is 95% certain, then that last 5% could be worth looking into.

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, GdnrBob said:

So, something like a power conditioner won't help?- Not that I would want to put amps on power conditioners, but put this out there as a possible cure.

B

Typical power conditioner won't help but cap coupling the AC into the primary of the transformer is a form of power conditioning.  RV

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 minutes ago, Holmz said:

Yeah - my point is…

• If RV says he is 100% certain it is imbalance then that is great.
• If RV says he is 95% certain, then that last 5% could be worth looking into.

I am 100% certain because every amplifier is tested for this as there are tolerances that the manufacture guarantee's.  This is a well known short coming of toroidal and Rcore transformers but normally the benefit out weighs the down side.  Not to worry  I assured the owner by phone we have a solution if he wants it.  RV 

[ctsooner]

Thanks Richard. We are armchair professionals, lol. Everyone wants to try and help. It’s a good thing to have I think. This is another reason why digital typically needs to be heard on the circuit it will play on as it’s the most power sensitive device I’ve heard in my room. 
 

Thanks for sharing so much about the situation and that include cost of transformers etc.  Appreciate the transparency that most manufacturers avoid.  I’ve always been a pretty direct person, so this is why I like reading your answers or watching interviews with you. Some folks drive me nuts in audio (as I drive many crazy too). 
 

There is a fix if needed

some bagpipes dude drinks and likes to show off trampoline moves while playing bagpipes 

Hope he is TT going ‘Vegas’ while on said trampoline 

BK has shared some more great reads so we are now a bit more educated (thanks)

Oh, there is an easy fix if needed, but it may not be

[BKDad]

7 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

We are armchair professionals, lol.

Speak for yourself!  I'm strictly an amateur when it comes to audio, and always will be.

As for digital, I think it would be helpful for everybody everywhere if we all looked at audio systems as systems.  There's all sorts of things going on that most people choose to ignore or minimize.  That doesn't help solve any problems or improve things.  All those hard core objectivists refuse to even consider this, because, well, I have no idea why.  You'd think they'd be all over it, since it's all based on well understood physics and electrical engineering concepts that are taught to first year electrical engineering students at the university level.  Maybe it's just easier and more comfortable to hold a simplified view of the world.  Better to argue than be thoughtful and really analyze, I guess.  Or, more fun.

If you had your own power generator just for your audio system alone there'd still be problems, even if that generator produced a perfect 60 Hertz sine wave.

[BKDad]

Let me add another "light" reading piece:

https://web.ecs.baylor.edu/faculty/grady/understanding_power_system_harmonics_grady_april_2012.pdf

As the author mentions, a fellow named Charles Steinmetz really studied and analyzed all of this more than century ago.  His work would require a page of links to even barely cover.  But, this is a short article that might be of interest for audio enthusiasts:

https://www.testandmeasurementtips.com/steinmetz-and-magnetic-hysteresis/

[ctsooner]

16 minutes ago, BKDad said:

Speak for yourself!  I'm strictly an amateur when it comes to audio, and always will be.

As for digital, I think it would be helpful for everybody everywhere if we all looked at audio systems as systems.  There's all sorts of things going on that most people choose to ignore or minimize.  That doesn't help solve any problems or improve things.  All those hard core objectivists refuse to even consider this, because, well, I have no idea why.  You'd think they'd be all over it, since it's all based on well understood physics and electrical engineering concepts that are taught to first year electrical engineering students at the university level.  Maybe it's just easier and more comfortable to hold a simplified view of the world.  Better to argue than be thoughtful and really analyze, I guess.  Or, more fun.

If you had your own power generator just for your audio system alone there'd still be problems, even if that generator produced a perfect 60 Hertz sine wave.

Well out and thanks BK. I like being challenged. I was taught in the 70,s to take the whole system approach. I think it’s why I buy a Mai a system and only upgrade within those brands and keep my systems for so long. I’m not the one who keeps US audiomart business. For my main system, I got ProAcs in ‘92 or so and then Vandersteen’s in or around 2010. I upgraded from Treo’s to Quatro CT’s a couple of years ago. Ayre to Vandersteen for the amps as it made sense. I’ve gone over my DAC upgrades in other threads and have to say the Brinkmann gear all plays well with Steen’s for my ears. 
 

How many times have we heard a mega priced amp sound great on one speaker and not on another one?  #dumptherabbithole

[Holmz]

59 minutes ago, BKDad said:

Speak for yourself!  …

….  All those hard core objectivists refuse to even consider this, because, well, I have no idea why.  …
….

Most hard core objectivists do not seem to believe that phase matters, and likely fewer subjectivists.
It is a pretty objective thing to strive for correct step function response… and use FFT machines, but who does that?
(Spike, Theilf are out. Dunlavy I am not sure of… etc.)

Next we can move to a bunch of subjective approved speakers with box resonances.

it is not like we all aren’t using pretty objectively correct speakers is it?

 

36 minutes ago, BKDad said:

…
As the author mentions, a fellow named Charles Steinmetz …
…

Without even looking I can tell you his middle name was Proteous. And the initials CPS would also have been interchangeable with  “cycles peer second”.
This I learned with from a professor who, as a boy, used to feed the pigeons with Tesla while waiting for his dad to finish his lectures at (I believe) CCNY.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Holmz

[TomicTime]

ah..systems engineering, a favorite topic of mine….. especially a system w 4 million parts ( 747 ) and human factors at play….

RV calls it the “ unfair advantage “ of the speaker designer also designing and implementing the two amplifiers as well as the speakers and in the case of the 7 and 7 system, selecting THE speaker wire. 

Carry on, enjoy the music

Jim

Edited March 15, 2022 by TomicTime

[BKDad]

2 hours ago, TomicTime said:

ah..systems engineering, a favorite topic of mine….. especially a system w 4 million parts ( 747 ) and human factors at play….

It's like a sports team.  The individual components may be great, but it's how they work together that ultimately matters.  Lots of subtleties that are easy to ignore. 

Of course, the same is true of musical groups, companies, and so on.

[BKDad]

One last comment.

This device is very similar to what Mr. Vandersteen is describing:

https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/isotek/products/isotek-evo3-syncro-uni-sine-wave-rebalancing-unit

I've never seen one, so don't ask for a review.  (Personally, I'd go with whatever the amplifier manufacturer advises...)

If you search around some more, you can find some photos of the inside.  

It's potted, but you can see the outlines of lots of electrolytic caps.  As I alluded to before, you need lots of capacitance to make this circuit work properly.  Basically, you never want the diodes to conduct if you can help it, because when they do they generate harmonics.  That may not be what you want.  

You also need caps that'll handle a fair amount of ripple current, since that's what they'll be seeing all the time.  In addition, you want to keep the internal dissipated heat down.  That implies using a number of caps in parallel so that each doesn't pass much current, relatively speaking.  You also need to use back to back to caps because they're polar electrolytic, after all.  So, maybe, something like 10  4700 uF 10VDC caps in parallel will do.  Low ESR, of course.  Long working life, too.

Fun project, eh?

[BabySneaks]

The great circuit breaker experiment of 2022 has concluded. I had hoped CNN would cover it, but they only show up for me when the bagpiper is climbing through the safety netting on the trampoline.

I shut off every circuit except the one that feeds the listening room. In the room, I unplugged every thing but the amp. Only the overhead light had power, but that was turned off.

The hum from the amp was still there at the same volume.

Is it safe to conclude that  whatever the irregularity is in the power to our house that is causing this is endemic to the electric feed into my house? That no appliances or dimmers or other things that I could replace or improve are the cause?

Would it be of any value to take the amp to another location, like to a stereo merchant that is about to start selling Vandersteen speakers, and see if it hums there? I would value finding a place I could hook it up and not have it buzz. Then I know the problem is in my house.

Thank you again for all your thoughts and ideas. 

[BKDad]

You'd think another location would give you an idea.  After all, you don't need to play music through it for it to hum. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

14 hours ago, BabySneaks said:

The great circuit breaker experiment of 2022 has concluded. I had hoped CNN would cover it, but they only show up for me when the bagpiper is climbing through the safety netting on the trampoline.

I shut off every circuit except the one that feeds the listening room. In the room, I unplugged every thing but the amp. Only the overhead light had power, but that was turned off.

The hum from the amp was still there at the same volume.

Is it safe to conclude that  whatever the irregularity is in the power to our house that is causing this is endemic to the electric feed into my house? That no appliances or dimmers or other things that I could replace or improve are the cause?

Would it be of any value to take the amp to another location, like to a stereo merchant that is about to start selling Vandersteen speakers, and see if it hums there? I would value finding a place I could hook it up and not have it buzz. Then I know the problem is in my house.

Thank you again for all your thoughts and ideas. 

You won't need to take it to a dealer.  Take it anywhere and plug it in because it doesn't need to be in a system, just plugged in to AC.  RV