Quatros, M5-HPAs, and a community challenge

[BabySneaks]

I took the amp with me to a local dealer of fine audio equipment, Stereotypes Audio, and plugged it in there. The amp still hummed. It was a bit more quiet than at home, but that might have had to do with the dampening on the walls of that listening room. 

I was a bit disappointed that it still hummed, as I figured Stereotypes had the best chance of offering power that would not cause the issue. We have two electrical utilities in town, and Stereotypes is in a different service area than my house.

I am going to spend a bit of time figuring out if the noise is something I can live with. I should have a five-year warranty as I completed the registration form the Vandersteen site the day I was able to connect amps to speakers. I am also going to discuss things with Randy at Optimal Enchantment. 

Thanks to everyone for your ideas. If you come up with anything else, let me know.

[BKDad]

Well, that's a hummer bummer.  

I don't have faith in a lot, but I do have faith that this one will get worked out.

[TomicTime]

Randy is a good man.  Best to you jim

[TomicTime]

oh and I have known Richard since 1983, i have a lot of faith 😉

Jim

[ctsooner]

Yes, tons of faith. 

[Holmz]

I found my English  dictionary.

There is a huge divide between, “Trust me these speakers sound great,” and showing a step function of a time-and-phase aligned speaker.

The first is faith based, and the later is a bit more scientific, measured, and factual.

 

faith

noun

1) The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.

2) Specifically Firm belief based upon confidence in the authority and veracity of another, rather than upon one's own knowledge, reason, or judgment; earnest and trustful confidence: as, to have faith in the testimony of a witness; to have faith in a friend.

3) In a more restricted sense: In theology, spiritual perception of the invisible objects of religious veneration; a belief founded on such spiritual perception.

 

 

integrity

 

ĭn-tĕg′rĭ-tē

noun

1) Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

2) The state of being unimpaired; soundness.

1. 3) The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness

 

There may be another (better) word, but I cannot find the damned thesaurus.

[BabySneaks]

A bit of update for you.

What is this new black box sitting in front of a Quatro and a humming M5-HPA?

It is an AVA HumDinger, sent to me courtesy of the fine people at Vandersteen Audio. They asked me to give it a try.

It helps, somewhat. The hum is halved. That is the official estimate of my family after some A/B testing. I still can hear the hum from the listening position, which is about six or seven feet away.

Good news came in a call today from Richard Vandersteen, who discussed plans to develop something specific to the M5-HPA to address this issue caused by the declining quality of electrical flow. Focused specifically to this model amp, it promises better results on the hum with the most minimal impact to audio quality.

I cannot tell if the HumDinger is degrading the sound quality much. I am still in the phase where stuff sounds so much better than I have ever heard before that I am stunned a few times each day.  Like last night with the last 40 seconds of "California Girls."

The time frame is a few months for the Vandersteen solution. I will send my amps when they have it perfected. I will post the results.

Meanwhile, I have the HumDinger. Somebody got Employee of the Month for coming up with that name. 

I also am getting bids to install one or two 20-amp dedicated lines into the room, although I recognize neither dedicated lines nor any AC conditioner will  solve the hum.

Thanks to Mr Vandersteen for helping me with this and explaining the cause and solution to me, a layperson, clearly. And, thanks to all of you for your ideas and support. I am learning a lot.

 

[ctsooner]

Wow,  talk about support. Glad to hear this. I’m sure it will be fixed soon. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

9 hours ago, BabySneaks said:

A bit of update for you.

What is this new black box sitting in front of a Quatro and a humming M5-HPA?

It is an AVA HumDinger, sent to me courtesy of the fine people at Vandersteen Audio. They asked me to give it a try.

It helps, somewhat. The hum is halved. That is the official estimate of my family after some A/B testing. I still can hear the hum from the listening position, which is about six or seven feet away.

Good news came in a call today from Richard Vandersteen, who discussed plans to develop something specific to the M5-HPA to address this issue caused by the declining quality of electrical flow. Focused specifically to this model amp, it promises better results on the hum with the most minimal impact to audio quality.

I cannot tell if the HumDinger is degrading the sound quality much. I am still in the phase where stuff sounds so much better than I have ever heard before that I am stunned a few times each day.  Like last night with the last 40 seconds of "California Girls."

The time frame is a few months for the Vandersteen solution. I will send my amps when they have it perfected. I will post the results.

Meanwhile, I have the HumDinger. Somebody got Employee of the Month for coming up with that name. 

I also am getting bids to install one or two 20-amp dedicated lines into the room, although I recognize neither dedicated lines nor any AC conditioner will  solve the hum.

Thanks to Mr Vandersteen for helping me with this and explaining the cause and solution to me, a layperson, clearly. And, thanks to all of you for your ideas and support. I am learning a lot.

 

One 20 amp circuit is plenty for any two channel hi-fi.  Use as many hospital grade duplex plugs as you need on the one circuit as this assures the entire system is on the same phase.  If possible have the electrician drive a separate ground rod  for this circuit exclusively.   RV

[GdnrBob]

I wouldn't rule out a dedicated line helping with the hum.  

Ya' never no.

Bob

[JonM]

The Humdinger is very interesting, thanks for keeping us in the loop!

[Richard Vandersteen]

18 hours ago, BabySneaks said:

A bit of update for you.

What is this new black box sitting in front of a Quatro and a humming M5-HPA?

It is an AVA HumDinger, sent to me courtesy of the fine people at Vandersteen Audio. They asked me to give it a try.

It helps, somewhat. The hum is halved. That is the official estimate of my family after some A/B testing. I still can hear the hum from the listening position, which is about six or seven feet away.

Good news came in a call today from Richard Vandersteen, who discussed plans to develop something specific to the M5-HPA to address this issue caused by the declining quality of electrical flow. Focused specifically to this model amp, it promises better results on the hum with the most minimal impact to audio quality.

I cannot tell if the HumDinger is degrading the sound quality much. I am still in the phase where stuff sounds so much better than I have ever heard before that I am stunned a few times each day.  Like last night with the last 40 seconds of "California Girls."

The time frame is a few months for the Vandersteen solution. I will send my amps when they have it perfected. I will post the results.

Meanwhile, I have the HumDinger. Somebody got Employee of the Month for coming up with that name. 

I also am getting bids to install one or two 20-amp dedicated lines into the room, although I recognize neither dedicated lines nor any AC conditioner will  solve the hum.

Thanks to Mr Vandersteen for helping me with this and explaining the cause and solution to me, a layperson, clearly. And, thanks to all of you for your ideas and support. I am learning a lot.

 

If you can get the M5-HPA on the other side of your Quatro CT's because it will lessen the room gain at 60 and 120Hz.  This may lower the hum a little more.  RV

[GdnrBob]

25 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

If you can get the M5-HPA on the other side of your Quatro CT's because it will lessen the room gain at 60 and 120Hz.  This may lower the hum a little more.  RV

Mr. V. how far away from the speaker should the amp be from the speaker to reduce it's influence?

And, why does it matter which side of the speaker the amp resides?

Bob

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

Mr. V. how far away from the speaker should the amp be from the speaker to reduce it's influence?

And, why does it matter which side of the speaker the amp resides?

Bob

 

The further they are out of the corner of the room the less the walls will amplify the sound the amps are making.  The amps would not affect the speaker unless it was less than 3 inches from the bass ports on the side.   RV

[JonM]

Some more data related to this thread.

First, know that I really don't have a hum problem with my M5s.  Not one that is bothersome, anyway.  Once music starts, even at very low levels, I don't hear them.  Besides, my amps are about 13 feet from my ears in my listening position, and my refrigerator is behind me 15 feet from my listening position.  Refrigerator is louder for sure.  At first I thought I was hearing minisplit compressor/fan noise through the exterior wall and I still get some audible hum from those units too.  I certainly don't live in a lab or anechoic environment, and I certainly don't have the double-drywall, green glue, staggered studs, hush box HVAC muffled, concrete slab floor, ~$100K home theater I sold with our last house.

But.  In the interest of science and learning and sharing and just because, on a whim, I unplugged my M5s from the wall and plugged them into my Furman Elite-20 PFi.  I plugged them into the high current amplifier "reserve" outlets.  I know the Furman is no AQ Niagara, but I think (??) it's a decent conditioner and it is a 20-amp unit.  Result: no change to hum levels.  I don't know if Furman even tries to filter DC offset, nothing in their literature says they do, and if it's at all invasive to sound potentially, they may not.  If they are filtering, they aren't helping in this case.

Anyway, just a data point and 30 minutes of my time, which my wife says is worth about as much as a ham sandwich.

[BKDad]

Do you have any dealers nearby who sell the Isotek products?  Perhaps they might loan you one of the ISOTEK EVO3 SYNCRO UNI products to try.  It might do a more comprehensive job than the HumDinger.

Again, I have no experience with products of either company, but at least there's photos of the insides of the Isotek product online.  They seem to have the right idea.  Of course, appearances really can be deceiving.

Anyway, not even worth as much as a ham sandwich.

[JonM]

1 hour ago, BKDad said:

Do you have any dealers nearby who sell the Isotek products?  

Just browsed a little, Isotek sure is proud of their products.   https://upscaleaudio.com/products/isotek-evo3-syncro-power-cable
The BKDad one is cheaper.

[BKDad]

Just what the market will bear and wants.  Check out RV's comments about this sort of thing here > 

Anyway, I tend to think that you may be more interested in this model > https://upscaleaudio.com/products/isotek-evo3-syncro-uni-sine-wave-rebalancing-unit

Whenever cables are involved the price seems to skyrocket.  I have no insight as to why.

From what I gather, consumer - specifically high end audio - products tend to have mark-ups somewhere between five and eight times the cost of manufacture.  That's to cover dealer margins, any importer margins (Isotek is a UK company), warranty costs, marketing/advertising costs, general overhead, cost of development, salaries, employee benefits, some profit, and whatever else I'm forgetting.  Since high end audio products generally don't sell 10's of thousands of units per year for each product (not including pieces like Audioquest Dragonfly DACs), you can't spread a lot of those costs over a lot of units sold.  So, things get pricey.

Take that Isotek piece.  Divide the $800 by five and you get $160 for cost of manufacture.  Divide by eight and you get $100.  So, the cost of manufacture is probably between the two.

Yeah, overall it's not cheap.  But, unless you have the time, the test equipment, the knowledge, and all that, and have access to a suitable machine shop for the cabinet (or are willing to pay somebody to do it for you), it's probably not a bad price.   By bad, I mean gouging.  But, $800 is still $800.  Times two. 

Besides, I think you live in CA.  Aren't there laws there about gear that gets attached to the AC mains requiring certification from a test lab?  (Another cost I neglected earlier.)

 

[JonM]

BKDad, agree, all fair commentary, logic and economics. If one does have DC offset on their AC line, would it make sense to filter it from all components, including sources?  This would lead you up the Isotek line to have even more outlets for DC offset filtering/blocking. Maybe it’s most obvious on power amp transformers. 
 

I am in WA state and we have all the consumer protection nannies, certs, processes and laws as CA. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by JonM

[BKDad]

The power supplies in almost all source gear use much smaller transformers than power amps do.  Therefore, they tend to have higher winding resistance than power amp transformers do and have lower flux density in the core.  This greatly reduces the potential for audible hum caused by DC offset on the AC mains signal.

So, this might not be a problem.  But, you never know.

From looking at Isotek's web site and the photos online, it appears like their main product focus is circuitry to minimize common mode leakage currents between components in your audio system as well as differential garbage that is riding on the power lines.  

I'll get on my soapbox for just a minute and claim that these common mode currents are a big deal and really have been neglected by the audio industry for, well, pretty much forever.  These are especially an issue now with digital products running in an audio system.

Whether the Isotek products do a good job or not, I can't tell you.  I've never seen one nor heard any in use.  I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night.  These might be a great enhancement.  Or, not.  Or, not to your own taste.

 For the record, I have common mode filters pretty much everywhere in my own system and they definitely help with transparency.  You need one at each and every AC connection for the gear to really get the right effect.

It looks the next step up the family tree for Isotek for DC blockers is the Evo 3 Nova.  Not so inexpensive.  If you wanted to get common mode isolation, I guess you could get one of their lower priced isolation products and then add the $800 unit in front of it to get rid of the DC.

[ctsooner]

Garth Powell designed the Furman gear until he left for AQ a bunch of years ago.  It was a great value, but they wouldn't let him do what Bill Low is letting him do.  

[ctsooner]

As far as Isotek, I have auditioned their top two offerings before getting the Niagara and they were very very good.  

[BKDad]

The AQ gear doesn't address most of what I mentioned in my earlier post.

Not commenting either way on whether they're good or bad products.  But, they target other aspects of the situation.

[Holmz]

If the hum is not caused by DC bias, then a DC blocker will not affect it.
I am under the impression that many of the power conditioners just have a bypass for the amps?

Some iphone apps that show the frequency spectrum might be useful here?
Is the hum at 60, 120, or 180 Hz?
I assume it is 60Hz, but if it were 120Hz, then it might be possible that it is pointing to something after the transformer??

 

And then all the expensive power cords talk about delivering massing current during transcients… A DC blocking capacitor would seem (on the surface of things) to impede that instantaneous transfer (which I pretty much discount as fiction for any amp with a good capacitance bank.) But I find it interesting none the less. I guess it must be a massive cap to not have a roll off at 60Hz.

[BabySneaks]

Thanks for all the ideas. To keep the conversation going . . . 

1) We would need to add to the cost of the Isotek products the fee for the divorce attorney I would have to hire. The stereo is no longer at the top of the home improvement projects list. The dedicated 20-amp circuit I am eyeing is only possible because we are going to gut the bathroom adjacent to my listening room. I hope to surreptitiously add it to the scope of that project. Don't tell anyone.

2) I made a recording of the hum way back when, and it seemed to peak around 120 Hz according to a frequency analyzer that is part of Audacity. But I might not know what I was doing, so I am going to attach the file. Mind you, it is not as loud as it sounds here -- I was aiming to get something that would be audible on a phone to send to a friend back when I was first wondering if the hum was "normal." Ignore the air noise at first, and you can hear the residual hum, esp. during the second half of the file.

For what it is worth, it seemed quieter this weekend. 

I am on the path with Mr. Vandersteen. I am going to use the HumDinger, which does help, until he and his crew come up with the superior solution.

Thanks for keeping hope alive.

Tim

Buzz in amp 117.aiff