Dual armed TT?

[Holmz]

I have been eyeing off dual armed TTs.
Mostly because the new phonostage has two inputs.

Are they worthwhile? Or a bit of waste of time? And just have one good one?

One limitation of the SOTA is that I am limited by tonearm length.
But I am not 100% sure that a longer arm is better other than in “geometry theory”.

 

Question #2:

Where does one get the flexible wire that is used for the tonearm anti-skate weight?
(I have a broken wire and with luck I might find the weight in the chaos of the moving.)
In the mean time the weight from Singapore went on walkabout so I ordered a Project one to get me by.

[Richard Vandersteen]

I use 2 arms, one stereo and one mono, sometimes I mount a mellow warm cartridge for so, so recordings.  My TriPlanar uses fishing line for the anti-skate.  RV  

[Holmz]

Thanks RV.

I was a bit uneasy getting the new phono stage… now I know why.

• I am looking a new pre amp
• and… a TT upgrade 

I’ll order the fishing line. Ta

[TomicTime]

i don’t have many mono recordings, the Triplaner is enough for me. Your SOTA is limited to about a 9” arm and without some modifications will not accommodate the Triplaner ( VTA tower and base dont fit in the plinth / arm board well ). Having said that arm length is a tradeoff between a few other important variables besides slightly lower error…increased mass isn’t free nor is a stiffer / low resonance structure. I have yet to hear a longer arm bowl me over….but who knows, i certainly haven’t heard them all….

[TomicTime]

i think w Eclipse motore and speed control for your SOTA you would be hard pressed to do better w another TT for under $10 k…

my buck fifty….

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, TomicTime said:

i think w Eclipse motore and speed control for your SOTA you would be hard pressed to do better w another TT for under $10 k…

my buck fifty….

Thanks Jim.
Damn that new phono stage! It having the two inputs has me thinking…

I was looking at a Denon DP-80 and a homemade plinth.
And also something like an old Luxman PD-444 or PD-555.

I put the new belt on the SOTA… but it is still throwing the belt sometimes.
If I do not pre-spin the platter the belt get thrown.
(There is a reason I made knurled knob for the screws that hold on the switch cover.) 

The other thought I have been having was to remove the guts of the Sota and put it into a new base/undercarriage, so that I have more area.
As you mentioned I cannot even use a Triplanner arm.

So it is a case of steel, give away, modify or keep the Sota.
or
Go with a new TT deck.

@TomicTime if you talk me off the ledge, I’ll give you two buck and a fifty cent CD.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Holmz

[ctsooner]

On 3/16/2022 at 9:02 PM, Richard Vandersteen said:

I use 2 arms, one stereo and one mono, sometimes I mount a mellow warm cartridge for so, so recordings.  My TriPlanar uses fishing line for the anti-skate.  RV  

Do you use a Brinkmann TT with the Triplaner?  

[Richard Vandersteen]

9 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

Do you use a Brinkmann TT with the Triplaner?  

Yes, I have the prototype adaptor for the second arm.  RV

[TomicTime]

The Brinkmann Taurus is the current DD two arm turntable, it is a fine bit of kit. Adds more mass to the Bardo, etc…

;-))

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by TomicTime

[ctsooner]

I've only heard the Bardo on a couple of occasions. Serious table for sure.

[Stringreen]

I know skating does exist, however in my system I prefer none.   What does one hear as an improvement in sound? ....how do you get a bulls eye on a constantly moving target

Edited March 19, 2022 by Stringreen

[Holmz]

Well at the moment the style rips across the record towards the label without it, so it needs more than zero.

Most do alter the amount as the arm moves… But maybe some f the problem is in the arm.
I probably need to order a USB microscope to look at the stylus.

[Richard Vandersteen]

12 hours ago, Stringreen said:

I know skating does exist, however in my system I prefer none.   What does one hear as an improvement in sound? ....how do you get a bulls eye on a constantly moving target

I start with none on a centered vocal (mono in the middle) and dial in anti skate until it centers.  On a properly designed arm the anti force varies across the record.  I find this ends up with about half the recommended amount.  RV 

[bkeske]

Great idea Richard, will have to try that.

I utilize a blank LP method (have one just for this purpose), and adjust so the arm barely and very slowly moves towards the  spindle, per Peter Lederman’s recommendation. But always open to various ideas.

[Moose]

I have a Dr. Feickert Firebird with 2 tonearms:  a Kuzma 4PT 11" arm, and a Graham Phantom III 10" arm which was on another turntable .  My plan was to put a mono cartridge on the Graham, but I haven't done it yet.  I have mono records, but they might amount to 1/10th of my record playing, or less.  I'm thinking of looking for another turntable to put the Graham on and using it in a different system.  It (and the Kuzma) has interchangeable wands which would facilitate a cartridge swap, but the remaining parameters, VTF, VTA, azimuth, anti-skating would still need to be tweaked, so it's not as quick as a dedicated mono arm.   A turntable that accepts 2 arms has a pretty big footprint.  It's also a pain to reach the second arm.   I guess I'm saying don't let a second phono input push you toward 2 arms.  Make sure you really want them.   If I played more mono records, it would definitely make sense.

[Holmz]

8 hours ago, bkeske said:

….

I utilize a blank LP method (have one just for this purpose)…

Pray tell what is it called (brand)? and where did you get it from?
I tried to order one and they were sold out months ago.

 

3 hours ago, Moose said:

….   I guess I'm saying don't let a second phono input push you toward 2 arms.  Make sure you really want them.   If I played more mono records, it would definitely make sense.

^Copy.^

I received an email from Donna yesterday, Been mostly talking with Christian, and they were scheduled to send parts, but Donna now says I should send the table in.
(I have no idea on the shipping cost, but my buddy said his had a long gestation period before the rebirth. I think it is over a year.)

I put in a bid on a MicroSeiki DQX-1000 yesterday, but that was declined. 
But it looked pretty easy to chuck and arm onto.

 

Right now the TT  feels like a starfish awaiting growing just a single arm.

[Holmz]

The starfish lives!

It did not require a microscope to see that the old stylus boom on the ‘blue point special” looked like a grasshopper leg after a bird strike.

A bit of a quick-n-dirty set up on the Garrott bros p77i… Visually it looked about right, but the overhang was difficult to determine with any confidence.
Then I had to download an iPhone RPM app, in order to get a strobe from the phone to adjust the speed.

Generally it had less sibilant sounds than I have had in the past.
I an not sure what a micro scanner II stylus is? (Maybe a sort of line contact or Shibata?)

Anyhow I generally liked what I was hearing.
And it was a huge improvement to what I recall (distantly) what the Sumiko “Blue Point Special” was doing.

It would be interesting to understand what an upgrade fron this would be, and what it would sound like.

Then I played some LPs and took some notes:

1. Paul Desmond Trio - (Very nice)
2. Ricky Lee Jones - (This great)
3. Lena Lovich - New Toy (A bit bass light)
4. Tool - Fear Innoculum (I am not a great fan of Tool, but my neighbour/mate loves it.)
5. Human League - Dare (which needs a clean, and it’s pretty center focussed)
6. Kate bush - Inside kick (which looks like it is an LP from Japan… some sibilant sound on it)
7. Violent Femmes - Violent Femmes (They must have be the consistently poorest US recordings made, and on 180 gr vinyl no less.)
8. Belafonte - Midnight Special (which is good.)
9. They Might be Giants - Flood (very good right from the start.)
10. The Cars - The Cars (This had a surprisingly wider spread than I recalled… Probably because when I listened to it in the past I was distracted with company in my youth.)
11. Jefferson Starship - Spitfire (Sounds good, but not too much my style.)
12. Talk Talk - The party is over (which seems like a lot of UK new wave had the lead singer standing back… or reverbed??)
13. The Clash - Combat Rock (this is good too.)
14. Wide Boy Awake (which is deeply UK 80s new wave)
15. Doug MacLeod - Come to find (Wow this is really good, and out is always a go to.)
16. Otis Redding - Dock of the Bay (mono -180gr. And it is pretty stunning, the whistling was clear and sweet.)
17. Makoto Terashita Trio - some album name is in Japanese (180gr - I have no idea where/when I got this, but it has a wide stage and is Jazz/lounge oriented - very nice and well recorded.)
18. Van Halen (only God him/her self only knows when I got this 180 gr LP - but it sounded pretty good on the song “You’re no good”.)
19. The Special AKA - In the Studio (A nice album from late 80s - Nelson Mandela was freed, and the wall came down, about a week after eldest daughter daughter was born.)
20. Spandau Ballet - Through the Barricades (Right from the intro of track 1… wow… this is stunning.)
21. Super Tramp - Crime of the Century (Started out OK, but a lot of hard panned sounds, which distract me… but good in general.)
22. Springsteen - Born to Run (This has been played to death over the years but maybe the micro scanner stylus  reaches deeper into the groove? The opening track always sounds like the platter’s pitch of off… CD always sounds that way too)
23. Watchman - movie soundtrack (I was not expecting it to be like Vangalis, but it was nice.)

Picture is with the colour vinyl Tool LP, and that new Korf headshell.
The belt did not fall off, so I may put the motor cover back on.

[Steve Edwards]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

Doug MacLeod - Come to find (Wow this is really good, and out is always a go to.)

Completely concur with that one Holmz; it has been one of my reference recordings for years.  AND, we saw him up in a little church in Tacoma, WA & he signed my copy.  Have had a few conversations with him at shows over the years; a real gentleman.

[bkeske]

14 hours ago, Holmz said:

Pray tell what is it called (brand)? and where did you get it from?
I tried to order one and they were sold out months ago.

Holmz, It is made by RecordBlanks.com, ‘anti-skate calibration record’ found it online.

[Steve Edwards]

There is also this one; a few bucks less.  

Brian, the directions suggest lowering the arm onto the center of the record and adjust skate until the arm remains stationary in that spot.  You like to adjust so the arm barely and very slowly moves towards the  spindle, per Peter Lederman’s recommendation.  It sounds like you're pleased with the results, but that leaves me wondering about RV's comment:  On a properly designed arm the anti force varies across the record.

I just had my LP12 rebuilt with a new cartridge, so this discussion is near and dear to my heart  :-))

Play on

[Holmz]

7 hours ago, Steve Edwards said:

There is also this one; a few bucks less.  

Brian, the directions suggest lowering the arm onto the center of the record and adjust skate until the arm remains stationary in that spot.  You like to adjust so the arm barely and very slowly moves towards the  spindle, per Peter Lederman’s recommendation.  It sounds like you're pleased with the results, but that leaves me wondering about RV's comment:  On a properly designed arm the anti force varies across the record.

I just had my LP12 rebuilt with a new cartridge, so this discussion is near and dear to my heart  :-))

Play on

The geometry of the stylus drag on platter, is also reflected in the arm’s mechanism for anti skate… which varies from outside in.

i am not sure if more energetic sound [passages and stylus movement increases stylus drag, and increases skating, and decreases motor speed.

Nor if the stylus riding on the nose on a d a smooth blank disk, would be the same as in a track on the walls. I it should be I think, but in the end it seems like a “close enough”.

I don’t know if I have the fine tuning ears for it… but maybe I do, as the SPL is slightly higher on the LHS speaker.
I’ll need to figure out whether it is the pre-amp, tube amp, or speaker or room… I’ll start with swapping the speakers first.

I have REW on an Intel NUC, a UMIK, and time… so I have few real excuses.
(I’ll do this in the digital domain for the source.) 
But is there a pink noise LP?
I found a place that cuts LPs, so maybe I’ll enquire as to the cost.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 7:34 AM, Moose said:

I have a Dr. Feickert Firebird with 2 tonearms:  a Kuzma 4PT 11" arm, and a Graham Phantom III 10" arm which was on another turntable .  My plan was to put a mono cartridge on the Graham, but I haven't done it yet.  I have mono records, but they might amount to 1/10th of my record playing, or less…
,,,

 

My thought sequences:

1. That you need an arm with a removable head shell so you can swap the carts . 
   1. And you are in luck as I can offer you the SAEC 😁
2. Next…  was… what is allure of mono?
3. Then I noticed that my statistically “best” sounding LPs (all the BlueNote LPs and the Otis Redding) were all mono
   1. But the AudioQuest Doug MacLeod is stereo and is one of “the best” sounding ones I have.
4. The mono LP sound pretty good with a stereo cart on the ol Sota..

[bkeske]

10 hours ago, Steve Edwards said:

There is also this one; a few bucks less.  

Brian, the directions suggest lowering the arm onto the center of the record and adjust skate until the arm remains stationary in that spot.  You like to adjust so the arm barely and very slowly moves towards the  spindle, per Peter Lederman’s recommendation.  It sounds like you're pleased with the results, but that leaves me wondering about RV's comment:  On a properly designed arm the anti force varies across the record.

I just had my LP12 rebuilt with a new cartridge, so this discussion is near and dear to my heart  :-))

Play on

Hey Steve, yes, sorry I didn’t explain well enough. Peter’s technique is actually a Frank Schroder technique, which Peter happens to support. In reality, Franks technique ‘requires’ that you do this at the end of the LP in the dead wax area, in between the grooves. Well, that is a pain the rear without the stylus falling in the groove, so, I use the blank record and simulate it at the end as well. Peter has a video on the Soundsmith web site which explains this in much more detail than I will here.

I do check how it acts in the middle as well, and yes, it is more stationary at the center.

As Richard suggests, and rightly so, the anti-skate varies from beginning to end, so he uses the middle of the LP as his adjustment area dialing it in with vocals. I’m intrigued by this idea, but have not tried it yet, in addition, to really fine tune in this way, I would think it may require two people, one listening, one adjusting the AS.

Edited March 22, 2022 by bkeske

[Moose]

22 hours ago, Holmz said:

1. Next…  was… what is allure of mono?

There are some great records available in mono, not just pre-stereo age stuff.   The mono Beatles releases are entirely different performances, and they're just as great.  Pet Sounds is in mono.  Hurdy Gurdy Man in mono, ... 

It does sound good played with the stereo cartridge.  If you have a mono button, that helps, too.  A mono record groove isn't modulated the way a stereo record groove is, so you can reduce noise even further with a mono cartridge.  

[Richard Vandersteen]

21 hours ago, bkeske said:

Hey Steve, yes, sorry I didn’t explain well enough. Peter’s technique is actually a Frank Schroder technique, which Peter happens to support. In reality, Franks technique ‘requires’ that you do this at the end of the LP in the dead wax area, in between the grooves. Well, that is a pain the rear without the stylus falling in the groove, so, I use the blank record and simulate it at the end as well. Peter has a video on the Soundsmith web site which explains this in much more detail than I will here.

I do check how it acts in the middle as well, and yes, it is more stationary at the center.

As Richard suggests, and rightly so, the anti-skate varies from beginning to end, so he uses the middle of the LP as his adjustment area dialing it in with vocals. I’m intrigued by this idea, but have not tried it yet, in addition, to really fine tune in this way, I would think it may require two people, one listening, one adjusting the AS.

The geometry of my Triplanar and some others allows the anti-skate force to change as the arm swings to the center.

RV

[nrenter]

On 3/21/2022 at 9:23 PM, bkeske said:

Peter’s technique is actually a Frank Schroder technique, which Peter happens to support. In reality, Franks technique ‘requires’ that you do this at the end of the LP in the dead wax area, in between the grooves. Well, that is a pain the rear without the stylus falling in the groove, so, I use the blank record and simulate it at the end as well.

If you have a clamp (or are wiling to affix it to the platter, perhaps using tape) a CD-R works great.