Question on coupling/decoupling

[Paul S.]

Im no expert on vibration as it relates to the quality of sound but i find the mechnics of how vibration affects components and speakers interesting . I thought this was lost in the analog era and only applied to turntables but I have seen alot of discussions on other forums regarding coupling components to maple cutting boards and putting ball bearings under subwoofers to effectively make them float or resonant freely. Has anyone tried this or maybe have a better explanation for me? I thought feeling the bass of my sub through my hardwood floor was a good thing but now im thinking that it isnt based on what i am reading. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Paul S.
Missing word

[Stringreen]

I am a pro violinist....everything makes a difference.    with my instrument, if I use different strings, different rosin, different bridge, different shoulder rest, different temperature.....everything makes a difference.   If you put a can of chicken noodle soup under your amp, and change it to tomato juice, there will be a difference....choose the one you like.

[GdnrBob]

I am playing with Townshend Platforms and Bars. The platforms are under my preamps and I can definitely hear a difference- much 'clearer and defined sound, esp. bass.

Bob

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, Stringreen said:

I am a pro violinist....everything makes a difference.    with my instrument, if I use different strings, different rosin, different bridge, different shoulder rest, different temperature.....everything makes a difference.   If you put a can of chicken noodle soup under your amp, and change it to tomato juice, there will be a difference....choose the one you like.

Unless things have changed since the 6th grade - Then I can assure you that if I was playing your violin… nothing would make a difference.

[Stringreen]

38 minutes ago, Holmz said:

Unless things have changed since the 6th grade - Then I can assure you that if I was playing your violin… nothing would make a difference.

Practice, Practice, Practice

[Holmz]

It’s too hot to spend any time on the roof in summer.

[Steve Edwards]

16 hours ago, Stringreen said:

Practice, Practice, Practice

That's how you get to Carnegie Hall, right?

[ctsooner]

4 hours ago, Steve Edwards said:

That's how you get to Carnegie Hall, right?

I just bought my tickets. Had wonderful seats for Joe Bonamassa a few years ago.  No practice was needed. ha.

[Steve Edwards]

On 4/8/2022 at 2:30 PM, GdnrBob said:

I am playing with Townshend Platforms and Bars

Bob, that really has my interest piqued.  More defined (or tighter) bass and wider soundstage are areas I would like to improve upon in my system.  Wonder if I can find a dealer who will offer an in-home trial?  Right now, I have my ARC SP17 just sitting on Mapleshade Isoblocks  .............  hmm

Edited April 10, 2022 by Steve Edwards

[GdnrBob]

@Steve Edwards, I bought them from a dealer in the UK, sight unseen. I would look on the website and see if there is a dealer near you.

I have some Pods that I haven't used, if you like to try them PM me.

Bob

[Paul S.]

Im curious how they are made. 

[GdnrBob]

I believe it is mostly spring loaded. -With some adjustment via screwing in/out.

I think there are some YouTube videos out there.

Bob

[ctsooner]

Guys, Brad is in this board and he reps HRS. That’s not why zoom and I swear by their gear. It’s because they back it with science and seem to have a great ear too. I have heard their gear with million dollar systems as well as much less expensive ones and in each case the difference was for the positive. I have heard most of the major and a few minor players in this space and have swapped out Townsend to HRS and back a few times. It was always hidden. Each time we all chose the HRS. That said the Townsend bases were really good too, just not better for us that day. It was eye opening as we all liked are music a bit differently 

[Richard Vandersteen]

What one puts under equipment can have a profound effect on its sound.  Some of our products use HRS solutions.  All equipment enjoys a solid constrained-layer shelf/platform, but some will want a solid connection to the stand and others will want a spring tuned to a low frequency (best example would be a turntable or CD player) some will prefer what the equipment used when the component was designed and voiced.  Any spring will work best if it is damped like the shocks on your car damp its springs.  There are scientific reasons for what will be scientifically relevant, but this does not take into account the listener's taste.  Five or so decades ago our industry took the tone controls away, wait, not so fast as they still exist but they cost money!  I believe this is partly why there are so many speakers and accessories with totally different sounds embraced by audio enthusiasts striving to make their favorite music sound good to them.  This is OK as it is part of the hobby but if one wants to get closer to the truth these different accessories should produce a predictable outcome on all recordings and be aware they won't always be good.  Measurements won't tell if a piece of equipment will sound good but to be in contention all good sounding ones should measure well in order to serve all music.  We all have the right to like what we like but it should be with our own confidence without constant external affirmation, IMO.  It is less stressful that way.  RV

[ctsooner]

Mike drop!  I miss the tone controls as I love so much of the 60-90's rock and pop.  Thanks for bringing that up.  I wonder why most companies don't figure out EQ and sell another box with it or add it to the preamp.  That would be the best solution I would think. It's not like we aren't paying a lot of money for components already.  I'd gladly pay the extra (x amount) if it was reasonable.  #notanengineer

[HK22]

Thought I would share my experiences with experiments in my own system (discontinued 5a carbons, VCC-5 center channel, VSM-1 surrounds, V2W sub) with both sorbothane bumpers and with springs. I use a vibration analysis app on my iphone (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/vibration-analysis/id817385888) to make some basic measurements on isolation. The nice thing with this app is that it provides a frequency domain view. For testing the isolation of a speaker from vibrations from the floor, I unplugged one speaker while the other (one or more since I have a 5.1 system) was playing. I used music and the vandertones test tones as well to check this. Tapping the floor or the speaker was also used. For the sorbothane bumpers, I also used the calculator they have, to check on isolation before buying a set of bumpers that could work with the 5a carbons.

I perceived quite dramatic improvements both with the sorbothane bumpers and springs, with the springs being noticeably better than the sorbothane bumpers. My perception is that the improvements here are much more significant including improved clarity, dynamics, and imaging depth and focus throughout the frequency range. I even tested putting springs under the components where it seems to me that there is improvement especially by isolating the DAC. But, the improvements here while still seeming to be quite noticeable were less dramatic than the speakers (and I am not sure why component isolation makes a difference since there are no moving parts in it unless some EM aspects are affecting the signal).

As others have pointed out in this forum and elsewhere, it seems that very careful choice of the isolation scheme is needed depending on the particular situation. So, it is likely that the solutions and associated improvements may vary based on the room, floor, speaker weight etc. I will likely try granite slabs at some point in the future but in some preliminary tests I found that I will need a significant amount of weight in my room to provide sufficient isolation. The height increase due to that will likely be an issue for me. In any case, my experiments even with springs do lead to remarkable improvements at least in my room. The improvements are second only to my switching from 2Ces to the 5a carbons and likely exceed any other component switches in my system and I am enjoying the music more than I ever did. 

[TomicTime]

While discontinued, the 5A Carbon is an incredible speaker and as you know quite revealing to source. I appreciate your work and conclusions, especially as you understand a moving spring based system MAY or MAY not improve a time and phase critical speaker - depending mostly on the floor. Astute.  Thx for the link to the app as well. So glad you are enjoying the music and improving your system…. all the best !

jim

[Holmz]

8 hours ago, TomicTime said:

While discontinued, the 5A Carbon is an incredible speaker and as you know quite revealing to source. I appreciate your work and conclusions, especially as you understand a moving spring based system MAY or MAY not improve a time and phase critical speaker - depending mostly on the floor. Astute.  Thx for the link to the app as well. So glad you are enjoying the music and improving your system…. all the best !

jim

Can you fellows dumb this down for me?

The house in the lower SW corner has wood over joists (or whatever the 2x8 beams under the floor boards are called). The dishes rattle in the chin cabinet when I walk by it, and while I am shedding a few pounds kilos, the floor is not as stiff as a slab.
(The <4kg pup doesn’t shake the house though in the same way.)

It’s similar in that it is a 5. system but without the model 5s.

[GdnrBob]

Sounds like a pretty bouncy floor. A pair of machine plates from China (via Amazon) would be the best way to lock in the speakers- and add the Vandy shoes. I put them under the Treo's and it seemed to sound significantly better.

I would put all the other equipment on some isolation platforms-Townshend always seems to work for me- especially the TT.

Bob

[HK22]

GdnrBob, could you post a link to the machines plates that you use? I may try these at some point in the future. With respect to alignment of the speakers, I adjusted the heights and tilts with one or two thin rubber pads so that the speakers are pointed to within a fraction of an inch difference in height right behind my listening position (measured with a laser pointer placed on top of the speakers). As alluded to by Holmz, the speakers can be seen to move a bit if I walk near them (I have a wood floor with a crawl space underneath and the floor is probably quite bouncy), but they settle down rather quickly so that when we are listening they are quite stable. I have measured movement while playing as well with the accelerometer app. The natural frequency of the system is well into the single digit Hz and the component of vibrations at this frequency are much smaller or in the noise compared to music generated vibrations at higher frequencies which themselves are significantly lower than were the case when I had the speakers directly on the floor. Overall, any solution that can reduce speaker vibrations (if your home environment has such problems) seems to pay rich dividends and reveal what the speakers are capable of. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by HK22

[GdnrBob]

I don't know the dimensions of the 5a's, so it is hard to say if you can find a precut machine plate that fits it.

In any case, just look at Amazon and try to find one that fits-

https://www.amazon.com/Length-Thickness-Granite-Surface-12x9x3/dp/B07VHQWTK3/ref=sr_1_9?crid=3KYSH4YLTVM3O&keywords=granite+machine+plate&qid=1680566281&sprefix=granite+machine+plate%2Caps%2C76&sr=8-9

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, HK22 said:

GdnrBob, could you post a link to the machines plates that you use? I may try these at some point in the future. With respect to alignment of the speakers, I adjusted the heights and tilts with one or two thin rubber pads so that the speakers are pointed to within a fraction of an inch difference in height right behind my listening position (measured with a laser pointer placed on top of the speakers). As alluded to by Holmz, the speakers can be seen to move a bit if I walk near them (I have a wood floor with a crawl space underneath and the floor is probably quite bouncy), but they settle down rather quickly so that when we are listening they are quite stable. I have measured movement while playing as well with the accelerometer app. The natural frequency of the system is well into the single digit Hz and the component of vibrations at this frequency are much smaller or in the noise compared to music generated vibrations at higher frequencies which themselves are significantly lower than were the case when I had the speakers directly on the floor. Overall, any solution that can reduce speaker vibrations (if your home environment has such problems) seems to pay rich dividends and reveal what the speakers are capable of. 

HK22, you should spend a few hundred dollars on some pier blocks at Home Depot and shore up that floor.  It is not difficult but will give you thousands of dollars' worth of improvements.  If you get lower readings in the high frequencies and the natural frequency is single digit this is an example of dynamics being cancelled by counter movement because of the soft floor.  This would be like taking the anvil away from a blacksmith and showing him the grass.  RV

[HK22]

Thanks GdnrBob and Richard for the link and suggestions. I will look into these possibilities. Cheers.

[GdnrBob]

20 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

you should spend a few hundred dollars on some pier blocks at Home Depot

That is even better. 

'Nip it in the Bud', as Barney Fife would have said.

B