Immersive Sound

[BKDad]

This is NOT a trolling question or any attempt on my part to criticize anybody and their approach to things.

So...  Please look here:  https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/installing-my-714-immersive-audio-system-r1116/

I am really confused.  

We have a large screen TV associated with our home audio system.  The loudspeakers are Vandersteen Quatro CT's, which some of you might have heard of.  No center channel or side channel speakers.  Just basic two channel stereo.

Once we got the system sorted out more or less properly (there's still some room for improvements!), I never, ever, felt the need for surround sound or any of that.  Nor even the desire.

Last night I was streaming the movie Fargo, which somehow got past me when it first came out, through Prime.  Prime is pretty good, but not perfect.  Anyway, the sound for the movie was side wall to side wall and beyond.  Some sounds came from in front of the speakers out at the side walls, like sirens and passing cars.  The rest came from behind the plane of the Quatros at varying distances.

So, my question is:  Just what the heck am I missing?  

[Richard Vandersteen]

BKDad, very little in my opinion but what you experienced is only true when exactly equidistant from your stereo speakers especially with Time and Phase Correct speakers.  HT has always been about group involvement (family).  A good example no center speaker (even ours) can ever sound as good as phantom when sitting exactly in the middle, but the center speaker is for the viewers sitting off axis!  So, the same can be said about the side and rear speakers, it's about spreading the joy and experience.  The other part of this is the hobby with special chairs, huge screens, popcorn machines chair shakers, etc.  Some take this as seriously as I do LP setup.  Room for everyone as we Audiophiles can be a bit selfish.  Enjoy the music and film if you like.  RV

[BKDad]

I find that we don't need to sit exactly center, but should be close.  Good enough for two people on a couch.  

But, only two people live here now.  The dogs are ambivalent about both music and film.

Actually, my wife admitted to me in the last week or so that she's burned out from a lifetime of listening closely to music, so she's happy just listening casually now.  And, she's happy with that, too.

[TomicTime]

A wise man once said to me: “ A wide sweet spot is lossy “…. ponder that, but not enough to subtract joy out of what you are doing 😉

For HT, i am no reference..i am quite content with a Sonos soundbar…..

2 channel is a different story….

Check out Amused to Death if you want to push the spatial envelope of what ANY Vandersteen can do ;-)… let me know when you look over your shoulder….

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, BKDad said:

I find that we don't need to sit exactly center, but should be close.  Good enough for two people on a couch.  

But, only two people live here now.  The dogs are ambivalent about both music and film.

Actually, my wife admitted to me in the last week or so that she's burned out from a lifetime of listening closely to music, so she's happy just listening casually now.  And, she's happy with that, too.

Nothing wrong with that but you asked!  Eneke and I are more casual about movies these days also.  Ditto, Amused to Death.   RV

[Stringreen]

6 hours ago, BKDad said:

This is NOT a trolling question or any attempt on my part to criticize anybody and their approach to things.

So...  Please look here:  https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/installing-my-714-immersive-audio-system-r1116/

I am really confused.  

We have a large screen TV associated with our home audio system.  The loudspeakers are Vandersteen Quatro CT's, which some of you might have heard of.  No center channel or side channel speakers.  Just basic two channel stereo.

Once we got the system sorted out more or less properly (there's still some room for improvements!), I never, ever, felt the need for surround sound or any of that.  Nor even the desire.

Last night I was streaming the movie Fargo, which somehow got past me when it first came out, through Prime.  Prime is pretty good, but not perfect.  Anyway, the sound for the movie was side wall to side wall and beyond.  Some sounds came from in front of the speakers out at the side walls, like sirens and passing cars.  The rest came from behind the plane of the Quatros at varying distances.

So, my question is:  Just what the heck am I missing?  

Its all a trick.....and I know what you mean.   I have a new MacBook Air with very small speakers under my palms as I type....and yet, the music is way beyond the left and right walls of my room with depth as well.  True there are no highs or lows, but the sound is quite impressive. Abracadabra

[bkeske]

I have a dual purpose room, with HT and my 2 Channel pretty much completely separated via the pass-through on my Belles preamp, thus, the Treo’s are my front speakers in HT, driven by my Belles MB-200 mono blocks. My 2CE Sigs are my rear speakers….yea, overkill. Yamaha AVR/processor for those times I’m in HT mode. Decent enough for me.

Here is the thing, I refuse to have the TV between my speakers. Not going to happen, so it would not work with 2 channel with my TV off to the side. (I used to do that for years, but 2 channel became more important, and the TV had to get out of the way).

HT really isn’t all that important to me, but, as I have a membership to the Berlin Philharmonic, most Saturdays I watch them perform live, and my HT system sounds pretty great while doing so. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by bkeske

[BKDad]

We have a medium large OLED display almost against the front wall.  I’m sure it makes some acoustic difference, but not much.  I tried placing diffusers in front of it as a test, and the difference was pretty small.  Thankfully.

[bkeske]

Perhaps not, but aesthetically, even more so, I just cannot do it. I also detest folks who put their TV above the fireplace (my goodness, so many of my clients do, and I cringe each and every time).  It’s an architectural thing for me. My Treo’s are on each side of my fireplace, with a diffuser panel covering  the fireplace opening. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by bkeske

[BKDad]

We solved that - no fireplace.

[bkeske]

lol, still couldn’t do it. 
 

[BKDad]

I hear you, but we adhere to the concept of simplicity.  Hence only one video display and one stereo system in the house.

Perhaps that's what got to me about the immersive system I originally posted about.  Definitely not a model of simplicity.

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

BKDad, very little in my opinion but what you experienced is only true when exactly equidistant from your stereo speakers especially with Time and Phase Correct speakers.  HT has always been about group involvement (family).  A good example no center speaker (even ours) can ever sound as good as phantom when sitting exactly in the middle, but the center speaker is for the viewers sitting off axis!  So, the same can be said about the side and rear speakers, it's about spreading the joy and experience.  The other part of this is the hobby with special chairs, huge screens, popcorn machines chair shakers, etc.  Some take this as seriously as I do LP setup.  Room for everyone as we Audiophiles can be a bit selfish.  Enjoy the music and film if you like.  RV

I whole heartedly agree.

It is amazing how the center channel speakers have a cult following in HT circles.
One is damned without one in the eyes of many.

And it is totally amazing how many center channel speakers have pretty dire and narrow radiation patterns., which seems like job #1 if there people spread out along chairs.

 

6 hours ago, BKDad said:

I find that we don't need to sit exactly center, but should be close.  Good enough for two people on a couch.  
…

And again, “agree totally”… from what we have found.

 

56 minutes ago, bkeske said:

…

Here is the thing, I refuse to have the TV between my speakers. Not going to happen, so it would not work with 2 channel with my TV off to the side. (I used to do that for years, but 2 channel became more important, and the TV had to get out of the way).

HT really isn’t all that important to me, but, as I have a membership to the Berlin Philharmonic, most Saturdays I watch them perform live, and my HT system sounds pretty great while doing so. 

I got the TV lift to attach to the back of the cabinet, but no time to put it in place yet, and it will take tens of hours I suspect.
That seems like the best option to have the TV integrated into a 2 channel setup. At least for us…
YMMV

[bkeske]

@BKDad Understood. I have a pretty small house, it’s just me, so no room for two separate systems. Even though I kinda do, in one single rig.

My bedroom has a system at the foot of my bed with the TV between my 1C’s (Yikes!! 😁). It sounds pretty good, but not for critical listening. And….it’s still surround as well, and still separated by a Parasound 2 channel pre with pass-through for 2 channel….into a B&K amp for the 1C’s. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by bkeske

[bkeske]

5 minutes ago, Holmz said:

I got the TV lift to attach to the back of the cabinet, but no time to put it in place yet, and it will take tens of hours I suspect.
That seems like the best option to have the TV integrated into a 2 channel setup. At least for us…
YMMV

I’ve done that in clients homes. Had one that rose up from the floor, as the space was surrounded by tons of windows and a beautiful view. Of course, every time I was there after completion, the TV was never recessed. Darn little trick costs some bucks, and it was never really used I think.

Edited June 17, 2022 by bkeske

[ctsooner]

We have the 65" LG OLED upstairs in loft with the system. I'm the only one who listens and honestly, mostly the only one using the loft TV.  I use two large fake plants/trees on the sides of the TV. It makes a very small difference.  I have always felt 2 channel is better for movies as long as you have systems like those on the board have.  Resolving and holographic.

[BKDad]

16 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

  I use two large fake plants/trees on the sides of the TV.

Are they time and phase correct?  😉

[Holmz]

5 hours ago, BKDad said:

Are they time and phase correct?  😉

 

@GdnrBob suggested that they be well grounded.

[ctsooner]

Of course the plants are time and phase correct.......  I better analyze them to see if they truly are though.  Now you have me second guessing the set up.  I may need to rotate them a bit to see what difference that makes and if I like that difference.  I got the woven silk ones with texture to break up any bad nodes I don't want in the room.  They are grounded by wicker baskets that sit directly on the carpet, but no spikes or shoes......

I put them in when Rutan told me to try them.  I NEVER did an A/B and I won't.  I don't think they did a thing, but they look nice and aren't in the way of the TV, lol....  I WILL say that the TV looks better when plugged into my old Niagara 1000 and that's not a joke.

[BKDad]

3 hours ago, ctsooner said:

I WILL say that the TV looks better when plugged into my old Niagara 1000 and that's not a joke.

Joking aside...  

Televisions are subject to the same kinds of noise issues as audio gear is.  If you have a CATV connection, there's a ridiculous ground loop problem unless you take great measures to get rid of it.  If you have a wired streaming connection, same thing.  (Not so with a fiber connection or wireless.)

To make it worse, these large loops can also couple to the loops in your audio system. 

If you make a drawing of your system with all the interconnections between devices both through the interconnects and the power, you can visualize all the loops.  It's electronic spaghetti.  Then add in the inductive coupling that takes place between the current loops and you have magnetic field sauce sticking it all together.  

It's no wonder no two systems sound alike, even if on paper they sorta appear to be the same.  Or, truly are the same like when you move your entire system to another room.  It should also be no surprise that changing cabling has a disproportionate effect on the picture and sound.

My point is, it's very easy to cap the potential of your home video and audio systems because of the whole interconnection scheme.  Who needs that?

 (We do need to be more light hearted, though)

[Richard Vandersteen]

4 hours ago, ctsooner said:

Of course the plants are time and phase correct.......  I better analyze them to see if they truly are though.  Now you have me second guessing the set up.  I may need to rotate them a bit to see what difference that makes and if I like that difference.  I got the woven silk ones with texture to break up any bad nodes I don't want in the room.  They are grounded by wicker baskets that sit directly on the carpet, but no spikes or shoes......

I put them in when Rutan told me to try them.  I NEVER did an A/B and I won't.  I don't think they did a thing, but they look nice and aren't in the way of the TV, lol....  I WILL say that the TV looks better when plugged into my old Niagara 1000 and that's not a joke.

Those plants need to be Spiked!  RV

[GdnrBob]

I have heard that cleaning the 'pots' might be of benefit to the sound.

😚 Bob

[ctsooner]

I'll get some HRS footers for them right way..... BRAD!!!!!!!  can you confirm?  I stream Youtube TV wirelessly for all TV's.  If it's not audio, it's wireless most of the time. 

[ursus13]

On 6/16/2022 at 6:30 PM, ctsooner said:

I have always felt 2 channel is better for movies as long as you have systems like those on the board have.  Resolving and holographic.

Totally agree with this. Getting a 5.1 or Atmos set up correctly is tricky. 

As a filmmaker, I push to have a stereo mix as our hero mix, rather than a theatrical surround mix. My first film was the first Atmos mix Netflix ever did, and while it sounded pretty amazing in Sony’s Atmos mixing stage, I’m unconvinced people can recreate that environment at home. (We all know how challenging it is to get a two channel system dialed in.)

I use our main two channel system to review mixes for projects now (Quatro CTs.) (And also on the mix stage, of course.)

We watched the new Dune as the first film we screened at home after getting the Quatros set up, and after the movie my wife said “I didn’t know it could sound like that at home.” This sums it up for me.

[BKDad]

We’re fortunate that our local movie house is technically very good.  The large theater and the sound system that fills it along with that huge screen in a dark room is hard to beat.  We obviously can’t match that at home.  So, it’s as unfair a comparison as listening to a symphony orchestra or acoustic jazz band in a proper hall versus a recording played in our living room.  Apples and watermelons.  But, I really can’t complain about we’re getting at home - it’s pretty good.

However, I’ve also been to a lot of movie houses that were, ahh, sub-optimal.  Poor sound, poor picture, or poor both.

Another great advantage of the home experience, aside from the obvious convenience aspects, is that we can just as easily watch the Marx Brothers or a Hitchcock movie as last summer’s biggest Marvel releases.  Can’t do anything like that at a movie house any longer for a bunch of reasons.  Same on the music side, of course.

OT, a little…. The newspaper articles paint a pretty bleak picture of the trials and tribulations people wanting to go see Taylor Swift in concert have encountered.  For the price of some of those tickets, if you can get them, you could buy some pretty nice loudspeakers.  Maybe staying home is a pretty great idea after all.