John Gallup Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 When the dealer was installing my new M5-HPA amps (powering the also-new Quatros), they showed me how the metal case around each amp had some damping material affixed to it. This is presumably to keep the sheet-metal from "ringing" when music is played. And in fact when you tap on the buttoned-up amps you get a dull "thud." Inspired by this, I ordered some 1/4" Sorbothane sheets and stick-down adhesive to treat my preamp (Rogue Audio RP-9) and phono pre (Rogue Ares) both of which have substantial expanses of sheet metal in their cases. I applied the stuff and put them back together, and I swear I can't really hear any difference. Both still make a "doink" sound when tapped, compared to the dull "thud" on the amps. Did I use the wrong damping material? Does the ringing occur at some frequency independent of what I generate by tapping on the case? I realize this is pretty geeky/esoteric, but would be interested in any opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtgt Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 I haven't seen the M5-HPA in person yet, but in general when there is a desire to lower the resonating frequency of thinner metal material, an adhesive butyl layer is applied to the center of the area that could potentially ring. You'll usually find this in critical areas under the carpet of your car. I'd only be worried about it in case your preamps are exposed to a lot of vibration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 I ripped my wife's convertible apart many years ago and installed the similar material in the door cavities, under the carpet, on the firewall (inside cabin) etc...It worked really well. I have the amps and noticed it also. I'm not sure of what material Richard decided to use, but I promise you that he probably auditioned a few different choices to makes sure he chose hte correct one. Most of us know how he choses what to use for terminals, case materials, damping, caps, resistors, wires etc... He's that meticulous and it's why most of us are hear in the first place. If it makes a small difference, Richard will use it. I'd personally worry about using Sorbothane in any application where it would get warm. I've seen it melt and ruin thing. Just be careful. I can tell you that HRS Systems has footers for folded metal cabinets as well as metal sculpted ones (machined out of a single billet. They have different needs etc.. You will also notice that the HRS footers that Richard is using on the M5's are custom made jsut for his amps by HRS. The front and rear have different spring rates . Not everyone pays that attention to detail. It's a great thread though and I'm curious to see where it goes. Has anyone else tried to damp cabinets adn if so, what have you used and what did it do (negative or positive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gallup Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 15 hours ago, ctsooner said: I'd personally worry about using Sorbothane in any application where it would get warm. I've seen it melt and ruin thing. Just be careful. Wow! Goo dripping down over PC boards sounds problematic, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Not sure it would happen, but I had a piece melt years ago and ruin a piece of gear and it was the manufacture who used it. They stopped after they had to repair my unit. I can't even remember which piece it was.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gallup Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 Went to the source on this, and here's what I found. Ask Richard Question Submission Question: What is the damping material installed on the inside of the cabinets of the M5-HPA monoblocks? It's very effective and I'd like to try installing it on other components with metal cases. Hi John, Damping materials are very specific on how they work sonically and need to be used after measurements of the problem to be solved. Then we use the material that makes it go away. Lots of work, lots of experimenting and money but the result is great and we keep that to ourselves. How do you like the M5-HPA? RV Richard, Very happy with the M5s and the Quatro Wood CTs. I get what you're saying about proprietary research and design decisions. I can report from my own unscientific efforts that Sorbothane doesn't do much to dampen sheet metal ringing. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 LOL...great response and true. This is why I kept trying to tell folks that even the 'felt' like material on the bottom of his spike shoes is very special. It's hard for many to believe that not all felt isn't created equal, but it's not. Richard is the most meticulous person I've met in this industry and I've been blessed to meet many of the designers and engineers over the years. Audio Research has a this guy who has been they 'last set of ears to tune' every single product they sell for over 40 years I believe. Not sure how old he is, but his hearing is still amazing and their products get better and better, just like Richard's and Nathan's so there's something to that I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC-93 Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Anybody ever take a sock off of a 2CE and put Dynamat pieces on the outside of the cabinet? Sides and rear, for example. I'd guess it would have to do something. Question is: would it be audible?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmz Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I‘d try accelerometers first. or laying on of the hands to feel for whether it is resonating. it would need to resonate to do something. Amd if it was irt would be hard to mode them produce a center image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Vandersteen Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, DC-93 said: Anybody ever take a sock off of a 2CE and put Dynamat pieces on the outside of the cabinet? Sides and rear, for example. I'd guess it would have to do something. Question is: would it be audible?? It will definitely change the sound! Remember when a product is properly voiced for a certain price point improvements are not always better sounding as this speaker has 35 plus years of voicing experience. One advantage is that DYI types love their work, and they don't need to satisfy anyone else (why I don't evaluate my own work without confirmation because I tend to hear what I think I did). Try it but even removing the sock will take the sound away from how it was designed. Nothing is perfect or there would be no need to be a TREO CT.......... etc. Some have reported improvements with Stillpoint feet but all I hear is compression of transients and a homogenizing time smear. I know in the end the owner is always the boss. RV 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Great response Richard. Funny as I've heard Stillpoints on MANY pieces over the years. Nearly every Wilson dealer seems to use them as well as Magico. I have a lot of friends who also have them in their systems. My buddy who writes for TAS did a shootout of footers. He bought nearly all of them and I was there when he did a few of the shootouts. Nearly every one of them had a different sound. it wasn't scientific or anything and it was only one his DAC and the other DAC's he had in house. He found that the HRS footers sounded as good as any others and most of the time they sounded best. I can tell you that the HRS Vortex footers made a nice difference in all ways on machined metal cabinets. The Nimbus made similar differences on the sheet metal cabinets. I fully get the DIY crowd as I tried so many tweaks when I was younger and had the desire, but now that I'm older, I just trust my ears and the designers. I've never been a tube roller either, unless the designer told me to try something that he wasn't able to use due to cost (many will do this adn it's why many of you will use 'premium' tubes to change things up). I will say that Mike at Quicksilver (back in the early to mid 90's) didn't like it when folks changed tubes from his stock tubes. I tried to 'upgrade' a few times on my all Quick system and most of the time didn't love what I heard. I owned a stunning Jadis preamp and amp back in the day and changed tubes (upgrade) that the dealer told me to change and it made a small difference and I'm not sure if it was better or not. YMMV Interesting thread for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC-93 Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 14 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said: It will definitely change the sound! Remember when a product is properly voiced for a certain price point improvements are not always better sounding as this speaker has 35 plus years of voicing experience. One advantage is that DYI types love their work, and they don't need to satisfy anyone else (why I don't evaluate my own work without confirmation because I tend to hear what I think I did). Try it but even removing the sock will take the sound away from how it was designed. Nothing is perfect or there would be no need to be a TREO CT.......... etc. Some have reported improvements with Stillpoint feet but all I hear is compression of transients and a homogenizing time smear. I know in the end the owner is always the boss. RV Speaking of changing the sound, these tweaked speakers were on ebay. Sold late August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeske Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 You mean that guy finally sold those altered 2’s? Seems like they have been for sale for over 2 years. Weird idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GdnrBob Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Yeah, I always wondered if anyone would want to buy a partially refurbed speaker as you can buy a well maintained pair for not that much more money. But, Ebay let's people find others that they would never find otherwise... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmz Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, GdnrBob said: Yeah, I always wondered if anyone would want to buy a partially refurbed speaker as you can buy a well maintained pair for not that much more money. But, Ebay let's people find others that they would never find otherwise... Janet Damn it Janet, we missed the sale of the Frankensteen 2C… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 I often wonder if folks even give a damn about sound. I used to be a DIY'r. I work with leather, wood (I've posted pics) and various other mediums. I've made plenty of speaker cabinets over the years and stocked them with drivers/crossovers from various companies who sell them. I've never kept a pair as they all sounded like crap to me. I don't have the time or desire anymore to play the carousel games and I firmly believe it's because I finally auditioned a pair of Steen's at Johnny's and that was it. I still get out when I can to listen to as much gear as I can. I still visit manufactures when I'm in their towns and know them. I've yet to hear a speaker that I like more than Steen's in their various price points. I cringe a bit when I see folks modifying the speakers (and that includes threads on the board), but like Richard has said, you own them and can do whatever you want to them. I FULLY get and respect that. What DOES PISS ME OFF are folks selling modified anything and not being fully transparent about it. Way too many jerks doing that and not just audio. I'm so careful buying used audio gear after being screwed by someone who was selling stuff from a SoCal dealer. I will only buy from someone I can vouch for and a friend will vouch for (or a demo from a dealer like my Brinkmann DAC that I purchased from a Vandy dealer after being tipped off by a friend that he wanted to move it and he purchased a Playback Design DAC that he liked better (and it's a few k more). Sorry for the long winded post, but those pics really did make me cringe, lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmz Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, ctsooner said: I often wonder if folks even give a damn about sound. I used to be a DIY'r. I work with leather, wood (I've posted pics) and various other mediums. I've made plenty of speaker cabinets over the years and stocked them with drivers/crossovers from various companies who sell them. I've never kept a pair as they all sounded like crap to me. I don't have the time or desire anymore to play the carousel games and I firmly believe it's because I finally auditioned a pair of Steen's at Johnny's and that was it. I still get out when I can to listen to as much gear as I can. I still visit manufactures when I'm in their towns and know them. I've yet to hear a speaker that I like more than Steen's in their various price points. If they looked like these, then I would say that you woodworking skills seem like they may have progressed a bit along the way… 2 hours ago, ctsooner said: … What DOES PISS ME OFF are folks selling modified anything and not being fully transparent about it. Way too many jerks doing that and not just audio... Not to be overly obvious, but I don’t think that the seller was hiding things too well here… 🥲 It was not exactly what I would call a subtle modification… like perhaps some a hidden rebuild of the XO… it reminds me of the saying: On 10/17/2022 at 6:59 AM, Holmz said: There is no such thing as a bad speaker, just a good speaker in bad shape. Edited October 20, 2022 by Holmz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeske Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Holmz said: Not to be overly obvious, but I don’t think that the seller was hiding things too well here… 🥲 It was not exactly what I would call a subtle modification… like perhaps some a hidden rebuild of the XO… A quite a while back I read about his rationale, which was to be able to place the 2C’s with the narrow side facing forward, much like a more common speaker. Of course, by doing so, pretty much screwed up the design of the speakers, I’m sure sonically it has to be a ‘miss’ …..IMO Oh well, what folks will do with their ham fists Edited October 20, 2022 by bkeske 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmz Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 32 minutes ago, bkeske said: … Oh well, what folks will do with their ham fists Hence the term, “non kosher.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeske Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, Holmz said: Hence the term, “non kosher.” 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKDad Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 14 hours ago, ctsooner said: I often wonder if folks even give a damn about sound. My opinion is that many don’t. Or, they don’t get it. That is not an indictment. This is a hobby and people should be able to pursue it as they choose. Somewhat OT, but maybe not… Back in the 80’s, the boutique car manufacturer Porsche more than doubled their sales. What brought this on was a new model that offered a feature generally unavailable for their cars previously - an automatic transmission. This really brought a whole new market segment to the showrooms. See, before that Porsches were known for performance and had some idiosyncrasies that required a certain level of skill on the part of the driver, for safety reasons if nothing else. The new car had the engine in front of the driver, which somewhat mitigated those idiosyncrasies. With the new model, a whole different kind of customer now could have access to Porsches, even if their desires were not so much primarily focused on performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 I still regret getting a Mazda instead of the 944 that I could have purchased outright. I had just graduated and gotten my commission in the Navy. I was sent to a Surface Warfare Officer school to learn to be a manager of people and to drive a ship. It's like flight school for SWO's. We received per diem to live on base at Naval Amphibious Base Coronado (where the Seals train and go through hell week). I lived at the Batchelor Officer Quarters and we ate most meals at the O Club. It was $4 a day to live and 3 meals a day was about $5 total. We receive over 20k tax free for the 18 week course and then we also had some add on schools with their own per diem. With my savings and per diem, I was easily able to get the Porsche (I would have gone with the stick still). Most of my friends got them (our Ensign mobiles , lol). One got a Bimmer (fairly new to the market) 3 series. Porsche blew up around then as you said and it was due to the auto trans. Most of my friends never learned how to drive a stick, even back in the 70's. I did and loved it, but the masses sure wanted that generations, adaptive cruise (best modern day comparison maybe?). The same goes for audio as you stated. I 100% agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GdnrBob Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Further afield- One of the reasons I bought the Audi TTs was the inclusion of the Dual Synchronous Clutch, something Porche was working on, but never introduced on their cars. Though many believe a sports car requires a manual transmission, I say nay nay. Much like the vinyl/digital argument(See, I got it back on topic!), I find a manual tranny to be a hinderance in todays traffic, and the use of paddle shifters and the DSC make a clutch look like a hand crank compared to a starter coil. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gallup Posted October 20, 2022 Author Share Posted October 20, 2022 24 minutes ago, GdnrBob said: One of the reasons I bought the Audi TTs was the inclusion of the Dual Synchronous Clutch, something Porche was working on, but never introduced on their cars. "The first DCT to reach production was the Easidrive automatic transmission introduced on the 1961 Hillman Minx mid-size car." — Wikipedia British technology leads the way again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmz Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, John Gallup said: "British technology leads the way again! … 2 hours ago, GdnrBob said: I find a manual tranny to be a hinderance in todays traffic, This has a different meaning in the antipodes. Almost everything is abbreviated like ”breakfast” becomes “breakie”, Robert becomes Robbo. However transmission is always spelled out in its entirety. Edited October 21, 2022 by Holmz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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