speaker height 2ce sig ii solved

[grue2cesig2]

i just ordered some custom sound anchor stands which are 8" tall plus the height of the spikes (approx 1 inch depending on how deeply threaded). 

first, although in the mid-late 90's i sold sound anchor stands, i never knew you could order a custom made pair!

second, the manual states that the "focus" of the alignment is 33" off the floor while the speakers are on the 3" optional sound anchor stands. well my ear height is 42-43" off the floor.  although i have for years, had my speakers tilted back the recommended 3" to 3.5" at  distances of 7-9ft from the speakers, i have not been satisfied with the sound. even though there is a reported 6"  (+/- 3") window of focus.

it's my assertion that tilting the speakers is no substitute for physically lifting the speakers. and here's the reason why: these are not super directional drivers - they don't "beam". and i also believe the driver arrangement does not facilitate beaming.  and certainly, the sound waves from the combined drivers,  do not behave/radiate in a spherical manor.  however the time/phase alignment may focus at a certain height, tilting does not compensate for physical speaker height.

i finally realized i should measure the approx height of the tweeters using a flash light shinning through the cloth.  my approx measured height on the factory 3" sound anchors is 38.5" . the recommended listening ear height is 33" which is 5.5 inches below the tweeter. even with the speakers tilted back, my ears are still 4-5 inches above the tweeter!

what ultimately lead me to this: on a few occasions i sat on the floor in front of my listening chair with the speakers vertical to tilted back dramatically.  each time the sound came to life, it was as is stated in the manual "just right" or just worked. i may have had an ear height lower than 33", however it was so "right" to me, that i've finally broken down and said i either sell these speakers and get something else (which i would probably end up in a similar situation) or correct the problem.

i really take issue with the user manual when it comes to the importance of listening height, and i take issue with the tilting as a solution, and further take issue with the "focus" of these speakers being tuned to 33" off the floor when noone in the world sits on the floor or a chair that is so far out of the norm of seat height that noone buying these speakers would ever truly hear them the way RV is trying to convey.  RV needs to change the focus of these speakers or recommend bean-bags as a seat.  standard seat height is 18".  further, i'm 6ft 3in tall.  33" focus does not even apply to the "average" person.

i have a little bit of a fiery attitude here because i know how good these speakers can sound but i believe so many people are so far out of whack due to incorrect height - and incorrect solution of tilt - that it's masking what i have known to be an outstanding speaker - in other words, knowledge and information should be freely shared and that knowledge/information should be accurate and inclusive and  also not just one point of view.  the manual should say, if your ear height is higher than 33" - buy custom stands according to this graph and raise the height of the speakers.  unless the maker wants to raise up the foucs from 33" to 38".

so ha, i solved the problem!  although i wont get my new stands for 4 weeks, but given the "floor sitting" i expect huge improvements! i think i will actually want to listen to music from now on!

[CyC]

One thing Richard advises is to use a light level (Home Depot ~$20) and put it on the top of each speaker and mark your back wall to verify the tilt on each and toe in matches.  Its a pretty good way to verify settings especially if you have uneven flooring, etc. 

[andrewtgt]

2CE Sig II used to be my main speakers and I also preferred to have them raised than tilted, however my ear height is 47".

Don't be mad at Richard because of this, most people are average height and like to listen to music while almost laying in a sofa.

And it's much easier for a customer to raise their speakers than it is to lower them 😃

 

[ctsooner]

Quote from Richard:

 

"The driver alignment is not at tweeter height but slightly below the middle of the midrange driver on all Vandersteen models.  In order for the woofer/midrange/tweeter to be at the correct distance to the listeners ear for time/phase alignment the distance can be corrected by tilt (simple drawing will prove this) or changing the height of the speaker stand/base.  The distance from the woofer to the  floor also effects the linearity of its response at the listening positions ear height by design in the bass.  Listeners have different preferences and putting ones ears out of the time and phase correct position can function as a sort of tone control (using tweeter height emphasizes the highs and diminishes the mids)  and would obviously indicate they are not phase/time sensitive.  Using a stand/base that is higher than the speaker is designed for will simply make the bass leaner which could be preferred.  Most listeners have their ears at 36 inches but this is unusually high in my experience.  The beauty of this hobby is one can adjust to taste. "   

The driver alignment is not at tweeter height but slightly below the middle of the midrange driver on all Vandersteen models.  In order for the woofer/midrange/tweeter to be at the correct distance to the listeners ear for time/phase alignment the distance can be corrected by tilt (simple drawing will prove this) or changing the height of the speaker stand/base.  The distance from the woofer to the  floor also effects the linearity of its response at the listening positions ear height by design in the bass.  Listeners have different preferences and putting ones ears out of the time and phase correct position can function as a sort of tone control (using tweeter height emphasizes the highs and diminishes the mids)  and would obviously indicate they are not phase/time sensitive.  Using a stand/base that is higher than the speaker is designed for will simply make the bass leaner which could be preferred.  Most listeners have their ears at 36 inches but this is unusually high in my experience.  The beauty of this hobby is one can adjust to taste.    

 

driver alignment is not at tweeter height but slightly below the middle of the midrange driver on all Vandersteen models.  In order for the woofer/

The driver alignment is not at tweeter height but slightly below the middle of the midrange driver on all Vandersteen models.  In order for the woofer/midrange/tweeter to be at the correct distance to the listeners ear for time/phase alignment the distance can be corrected by tilt (simple drawing will prove this) or changing the height of the speaker stand/base.  The distance from the woofer to the  floor also effects the linearity of its response at the listening positions ear height by design in the bass.  Listeners have different preferences and putting ones ears out of the time and phase correct position can function as a sort of tone control (using tweeter height emphasizes the highs and diminishes the mids)  and would obviously indicate they are not phase/time sensitive.  Using a stand/base that is higher than the speaker is designed for will simply make the bass leaner which could be preferred.  Most listeners have their ears at 36 inches but this is unusually high in my experience.  The beauty of this hobby is one can adjust to taste.    

 

driver alignment is not at tweeter height but slightly below the middle of the midrange driver on all Vandersteen models.  In order for the woofer/midrange/tweeter to be at the correct distance to the listeners ear for time/phase alignment the distance can be corrected by tilt (simple drawing will prove this) or changing the height of the speaker stand/base.  The distance from the woofer to the  floor also effects the linearity of its response at the listening positions ear height by design in the bass.  Listeners have different preferences and putting ones ears out of the time and phase correct position can function as a sort of tone control (using tweeter height emphasizes the highs and diminishes the mids)  and would obviously indicate they are not phase/time sensitive.  Using a stand/base that is higher than the speaker is designed for will simply make the bass leaner which could be preferred.  Most listeners have their ears at 36 inches but this is unusually high in my experience.  The beauty of this hobby is one can adjust to taste.    

 

/tweeter to be at the correct distance to the listeners ear for time/phase alignment the distance can be corrected by tilt (simple drawing will prove this) or changing the height of the speaker stand/base.  The distance from the woofer to the  floor also effects the linearity of its response at the listening positions ear height by design in the bass.  Listeners have different preferences and putting ones ears out of the time and phase correct position can function as a sort of tone control (using tweeter height emphasizes the highs and diminishes the mids)  and would obviously indicate they are not phase/time sensitive.  Using a stand/base that is higher than the speaker is designed for will simply make the bass leaner which could be preferred.  Most listeners have their ears at 36 inches but this is unusually high in my experience.  The beauty of this hobby is one can adjust to taste.    

 

[grue2cesig2]

1 hour ago, andrewtgt said:

2CE Sig II used to be my main speakers and I also preferred to have them raised than tilted, however my ear height is 47".

Don't be mad at Richard because of this, most people are average height and like to listen to music while almost laying in a sofa.

And it's much easier for a customer to raise their speakers than it is to lower them 😃

 

not mad at richard. (grrr) .  his experiences may be totally different than mine.  however when i read a quote like the one below in ctsooner's post, yeah that would have been helpful to read in the manual or on the product page of every speaker he has!  - life lesson, don't get stuck conforming to someone else's experiences and thinking you're the one that's screwing up 🙂

cyc - yeah, i've got 2 dual axis auto leveling lasers mounted on camera tripods, large and small carpenter squares, several bubble levels and multiple tape measures as well as several lengths of string. ha!  oh and some angle gauges... forget what they are called but they are circular and marked in 1/2 degree increments.

bass response will be affected like he said, but for me i think that's kind of ok as my room and setup will not give me ideal bass response, but the cool thing is, i can still hear every note that i "look for" when judging bass.  for example, around 1 min into "obvious child" from paul simon, there's a nice thump/thump sound that for years has always made me think someone was outside closing a car door.... as long as i can hear that, i'm thinking i'm pretty good.

anyway, i'm getting so excited for the new stands to come!

[ctsooner]

Again, as we all know.... trust your ears and do what is best for YOU.  I love threads like this as I learn more about people than audio.  Hope you understand what I'm saying.  

Excited for you. We all share the joy of waiting on something that will change our systems and hopefully for the best.  I really want to see how you end up here.  I'm going to get Brad to join us so that he can see all the little things we would like to see made better.  it's the only way we all benefit.  Thanks.

[DC-93]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:10 PM, grue2cesig2 said:

not mad at richard. (grrr) .  his experiences may be totally different than mine.  however when i read a quote like the one below in ctsooner's post, yeah that would have been helpful to read in the manual or on the product page of every speaker he has!  - life lesson, don't get stuck conforming to someone else's experiences and thinking you're the one that's screwing up 🙂

cyc - yeah, i've got 2 dual axis auto leveling lasers mounted on camera tripods, large and small carpenter squares, several bubble levels and multiple tape measures as well as several lengths of string. ha!  oh and some angle gauges... forget what they are called but they are circular and marked in 1/2 degree increments.

bass response will be affected like he said, but for me i think that's kind of ok as my room and setup will not give me ideal bass response, but the cool thing is, i can still hear every note that i "look for" when judging bass.  for example, around 1 min into "obvious child" from paul simon, there's a nice thump/thump sound that for years has always made me think someone was outside closing a car door.... as long as i can hear that, i'm thinking i'm pretty good.

anyway, i'm getting so excited for the new stands to come!

Any update?  Taller stands work like you thought they would?

Interesting thread... 

[GdnrBob]

1 hour ago, DC-93 said:

Interesting thread... 

Though a bit long in the tooth...

Is the OP still here?

B

[grue2cesig2]

yep i'm here.  i thought i posted that yes a RESOUNDING YES they work incredibly.  i even got a new comfy chair that i can slouch a little in or sit more upright and it's outstanding sound.  man, on some female vocals the voices just BLOOM out into the room. (but not like hey your system sucks because it's so boomy and bloomy).  you know those 3d waterfall graphs that some stereo magazines have?  the sound is like that only not at an angle like the graphs are shown, it's like the waterfall is coming strait at you.  it's like music. when i stand up behind my chair it gets all thin and flat and less detail across the board. but now, on some songs, in some parts of the music, it's like floating in front of you and around you.  30" meh. i don't have beanbag chairs.   i think i have given up some of the low end, but my room is nowhere near good enough to give a good low end response. i can still hear the low notes on a few tracks i use to judge low end range, but they are not as pronounced as they were before, but no where near what they should be because of the room itself.  i have no corners to tuck them in without them being 6ft apart. well, i wonder if i put them right up against the side walls i could probably get them 8ft apart but then i'd have other issues like a glass patio door immediately to the right of the speaker.

sorry for not being less long in the tooth ha.

[grue2cesig2]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:00 PM, ctsooner said:

Again, as we all know.... trust your ears and do what is best for YOU.  I love threads like this as I learn more about people than audio.  Hope you understand what I'm saying.  

Excited for you. We all share the joy of waiting on something that will change our systems and hopefully for the best.  I really want to see how you end up here.  I'm going to get Brad to join us so that he can see all the little things we would like to see made better.  it's the only way we all benefit.  Thanks.

well, i don't think it's so much "YOU". i think it's that i trust engineering and RV's experience when he says 30" off the floor ear height and my ear height was whatever.  i've run across MANY people who just flat out did things wrong and wondered why xyz was such a big deal - hanging magnapans on the wall for instance.  then when i corrected the situation they had no idea the speakers could sound so good.

[GdnrBob]

1 hour ago, grue2cesig2 said:

sorry for not being less long in the tooth ha.

I meant the topic, not you.

Ghaaa!☺️

Or should I say Wafna!? I was listening to Carmina Burana...😉

B

Edited October 7, 2022 by GdnrBob

[grue2cesig2]

2 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

I meant the topic, not you.

Ghaaa!☺️

Or should I say Wafna!? I was listening to Carmina Burana...😉

B

ah ok. thanks. no worries.  at work people often just come up to my desk in response to my long emails  -yup i'm one of "those" depending on my level of passion towards the subject.

[Holmz]

7 hours ago, grue2cesig2 said:

…

sorry for not being less long in the tooth ha.

I can see a bit of an Australian style response ^there^.
It is pretty full of double negatives!
(Well done!)

Here when some asks, “How are you.” … one often hears, “Not bad.”
And when offered food, or a beer, a relatively normal phrase is, “I wouldn’t say no.”
For people not used to double negatives it take some time to unwind it.

And the phrase “not bad” is subtlety different than ”Good”… it could be neutral or good.
And it conveys something of a normal state… 

[Ipspam]

I have been a fool many times on my path. Once I wanted to extrapolate the distance/tilt for less than 8 feet distance from the graph in manual. Did it very wrong. Didn't dial in speakers.

More recently than I would care to admit, I thought my measuring stick was 36", but it was 32". So I still somehow had my speakers pointed over my head for quite some time. Eventually, I worked off the 35" rule, and realized my speakers need to be flat, no tilt. I got that sorted. Had to go to the hardware store for washers. I also use a blanked folded over 4x, and "purple" pillow support base 1" and 1/2 inch on my listening chair. To change my listening height.

You are right, there is a certain amount of magic that happens on line with the magical number, which in my case is 35". I have found that a tilt does not compensate perfectly for listening height.

Another thing, I'm using the Focal formula, with speakers glued to the 1/5th out from sidewall points. and so for every washer I add, I get a significant forwards/backwards movement. By raising the rear firing woofer, it wants to pull the speaker back towards the front wall a little bit.

So don't be afraid to venture from your preferred speaker spot slightly at the same time as adjusting tilt to compensate for the new woofer height and bass room response.

Asq = BC

26sq=BC

676 = 9" center of bass driver height off floor * 75.11" from center of speaker to front wall
676 = 8.875 = 76.17"

By raising the average woofer height 1/8th inch (adding 1/4" to rear spike) , the formula says move speaker back an inch, If I want to stay on the 1/5th of 10'8" room width. (26" side wall to speaker center) ,which I do.

Seems to work for me finding/maintaining the sweet spot as the tilt is adjusted. It's reinforcing the bass from the back wall  a little more to compensate for it being less reinforced from below.

Good luck on your hunt sir.