Bass when listening to albums

[Zeus]

Hello, I have had my treo ct's for about three months and am very happy with them, but when I play albums the bass sounds a little punchy, sightly muddled, not very tight. The sound isn't really bad just different than I am used to. Prior to my treo's I had 25 year old kef 104/2's which I bought new and really loved before they deteriorated over time. The kef's have very tight bass which was one of the reason I liked them.  Has anyone experienced similar performance? My room is large with lots of acoustic treatments.

Thx, Tom.

 

McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable.

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

Could be you have over treated the room.  Treatments have very little effect on the bass, but bass definition is always in the mids.  A little too much absorption in the mids can take away the leading edge of a bass note.  They are "Q 'ed" .707 with is maximally flat considered to be best for music.  Moving the speaker inches can fine tune this and may be worth trying as this is not a complaint we hear.  Keep the speaker wire as short as possible.  RV

[Stringreen]

When you say "albums"....do you mean CD's or Vinyl

[GdnrBob]

And, what equipment are you pairing with the Treo's?

B

[TomicTime]

how far out into the room are they ? and are we talking mid bass or ?

best to you and welcome to the forum 

Jim

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

And, what equipment are you pairing with the Treo's?

B

I hate to give a maths lesson, but it seems like “pairing” with something that is called a “Treo” could come up 1 sort 😙

GdnrJo is like GdnrBob with all the plants.

On a serious note, I am working on wiring up the Mrs old 2-way Richter speakers and her old NAD 3020.
They are looking a bit sorry with the plastics black wood grained  vinyl peeling off, but they sound OK.
Off to get some solder and flux, and some RCAs, and search for veneer.

[Zeus]

Thx for the responses.

RV: I removed the treatments near the listening position and things got a lot better. Now there is more balance between highs and lows and the bass sounds better, more integrated, I think due to it being less prominent. From the internets:-) I found a Q of 0.707 is underdamped maybe providing some sustain? Curious how that is related to the bass response. I find it interesting the preferred Q is the inverse of root 2. It is cool how certain numbers turn up in nature and seem often be irrational. Speaker wire is bi-wired BELS12 3 meter. I will try moving speaker position next.

Stringreen: By album I mean vinyl. I need to work on my terminology, if it was 1985 you probably would have known what I was referring to:-)

GdnrBob: McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3 DAC, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable, 3 meter BEL S12 speaker bi-wire, interconnect 1 meter Audioquest water balanced.

TomicTime: my back wall is irregular, three separate planes, including one plane at an angle and a short plane segment parallel to the side walls creating a nook. On one side the speaker it two feet from the angled back wall. On the other side the speaker is six feet from the non angled back wall. Clear as mud?

[Richard Vandersteen]

1 hour ago, Zeus said:

Thx for the responses.

RV: I removed the treatments near the listening position and things got a lot better. Now there is more balance between highs and lows and the bass sounds better, more integrated, I think due to it being less prominent. From the internets:-) I found a Q of 0.707 is underdamped maybe providing some sustain? Curious how that is related to the bass response. I find it interesting the preferred Q is the inverse of root 2. It is cool how certain numbers turn up in nature and seem often be irrational. Speaker wire is bi-wired BELS12 3 meter. I will try moving speaker position next.

Stringreen: By album I mean vinyl. I need to work on my terminology, if it was 1985 you probably would have known what I was referring to:-)

GdnrBob: McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3 DAC, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable, 3 meter BEL S12 speaker bi-wire, interconnect 1 meter Audioquest water balanced.

TomicTime: my back wall is irregular, three separate planes, including one plane at an angle and a short plane segment parallel to the side walls creating a nook. On one side the speaker it two feet from the angled back wall. On the other side the speaker is six feet from the non angled back wall. Clear as mud?

I would shorten your speaker wire if all that length is not needed.  This will give you improved bass control of the woofers.  RV

[Stringreen]

3 hours ago, Zeus said:

Thx for the responses.

RV: I removed the treatments near the listening position and things got a lot better. Now there is more balance between highs and lows and the bass sounds better, more integrated, I think due to it being less prominent. From the internets:-) I found a Q of 0.707 is underdamped maybe providing some sustain? Curious how that is related to the bass response. I find it interesting the preferred Q is the inverse of root 2. It is cool how certain numbers turn up in nature and seem often be irrational. Speaker wire is bi-wired BELS12 3 meter. I will try moving speaker position next.

Stringreen: By album I mean vinyl. I need to work on my terminology, if it was 1985 you probably would have known what I was referring to:-)

GdnrBob: McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3 DAC, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable, 3 meter BEL S12 speaker bi-wire, interconnect 1 meter Audioquest water balanced.

TomicTime: my back wall is irregular, three separate planes, including one plane at an angle and a short plane segment parallel to the side walls creating a nook. On one side the speaker it two feet from the angled back wall. On the other side the speaker is six feet from the non angled back wall. Clear as mud?

It is...Clear as mud, and covers de ground....anyone know who sang this on what album??

[ctsooner]

When I went from 8' speaker cables to 3' cables it made such a huge difference.  HUGE.  I was really surprised.

[GdnrBob]

6 hours ago, Zeus said:

GdnrBob: McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3 DAC, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable, 3 meter BEL S12 speaker bi-wire, interconnect 1 meter Audioquest water balanced.

Nice equipment. 

I have no experience with BEL wire, but as Mr. V. pointed out 3 meters is kinda long, though I can understand that it might be necessary. 

Considering your original post-

On 7/15/2022 at 2:52 PM, Zeus said:

but when I play albums the bass sounds a little punchy, sightly muddled, not very tight.

It may well be that your speaker cables might be part of the reason for the 'muddled bass'.

Not to try to make you buy something new, but Audioquest cables seem to work well with Vandersteen speakers. Do you have a dealer nearby who can loan you some cables?

Rocket 88's or GO-4's on the lower priced models, William Tell's on the high end (but, worth it).

Bob

[Holmz]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:52 AM, Zeus said:

Hello, I have had my treo ct's for about three months and am very happy with them, but when I play albums the bass sounds a little punchy, sightly muddled, not very tight. The sound isn't really bad just different than I am used to. Prior to my treo's I had 25 year old kef 104/2's which I bought new and really loved before they deteriorated over time. The kef's have very tight bass which was one of the reason I liked them.  Has anyone experienced similar performance? My room is large with lots of acoustic treatments.

Thx, Tom.

 

McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable.

 

 

“Tight”, and “fast”, are terms often used, but it usually more like transcient response and some group delay, that is deemed as adding to toightness or taking away from it respectively.

And a lot of that is happening in the harmonics of the bass notes.
 

Are the room treatments “bass treatments” or higher frequency treatments?
If the treatments are for higher frequencies, then it is possible that you have more bass than you had before.

I have no info on these, but I like the idea.
https://www.psiaudio.swiss/avaa-c20-active-bass-trap/

[Stringreen]

answer......Belefonte at Carnegie Hall......Matilda.    The album is 1st rate in sound and content

[TomicTime]

String ! playing it now…on your suggestion, thx for the great reminder !

[ctsooner]

….. and now I will need to stream ha!!!

[Holmz]

21 hours ago, Stringreen said:

answer......Belefonte at Carnegie Hall......Matilda.    The album is 1st rate in sound and content

^That is nice.^
I hooked up the iPad—> DAC —> NAD (3220)—> old Richter 2ways… and we have Harry “in the house.”

Previously I thought you mentioned a subscription to some opera or symphony. What one was that @Stringreen?

[Stringreen]

played 2nd fiddle in NYPhil

[Oregon]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:18 PM, ctsooner said:

When I went from 8' speaker cables to 3' cables it made such a huge difference.  HUGE.  I was really surprised.

Yep.

 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:04 AM, ctsooner said:

….. and now I will need to stream ha!!!

Perish the thought! ;^)

[Zeus]

Is the consensus that I should move away from BEL and to Audioquest speaker cables?

Thx

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:52 AM, Zeus said:

Hello, I have had my treo ct's for about three months and am very happy with them, but when I play albums the bass sounds a little punchy, sightly muddled, not very tight. The sound isn't really bad just different than I am used to. Prior to my treo's I had 25 year old kef 104/2's which I bought new and really loved before they deteriorated over time. The kef's have very tight bass which was one of the reason I liked them.  Has anyone experienced similar performance? My room is large with lots of acoustic treatments.

Thx, Tom.

 

McIntosh mc312 amp , Audio Research LS28SE Preamp, Benchmark DAC3, PS Audio stellar phono preamp, Rega planar 6 turntable.

 

No, that is not what I am recommending because BEL wire is very good sounding especially for the money.  You should audition any new wire before you spend the money so the difference can be evaluated for1) is it better in a way I like.  2) is the improvement worth the cost.  3) is this truly the weakest link in my system?  I was recommending you shorten the wire if practical because generally long speaker wires have a large impact on the bass performance of any speaker because it is a high current and low impedance circuit.  Cut one of the long wires and save the other for future use as a long length has more value than short pieces.   RV

[GdnrBob]

@Zeus,

Sorry if I sounded as if I was trashing your BEL cables. I think I mentioned that I had no firsthand experience with the BEL's, but when I mentioned the AQ cables, I did so as I have had very good experiences with them.

1 hour ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

BEL wire is very good sounding especially for the money.

Mr. V. has way more experience with more cables that I. So, whatever he says is probably the best info you can get.

 

But, I will say, that if you do audition new speaker cables, then look at the AQ William Tell's. Mui expensive, but worth the money. And, this is coming from someone who doubted that cables would make a difference.

Bob

[Zeus]

But does Mr. V really have that much experience with speakers?

45 minutes ago, GdnrBob said:

@Zeus

Mr. V. has way more experience with more cables that I. So, whatever he says is probably the best info you can get.

 

[Holmz]

Using a shorter speaker cable has a grounding in math and science.
And regularly one uses a pair of mono blocks, which means that they also have more reserve with essentially 1/2 the load.

I am finally getting around to ordering the cotton covered wires for the ICs and the speaker cables.
It is a bit different approach than the biased dielectric, but the idea is that the dielectric of the cotton is not like teflon, or other plastics… and does not have the hysteresis. 

[ctsooner]

BEL is great for the bucks. Same with their electronics. Mike Huesey the dealer in Houston  loves their gear. 

[GdnrBob]

21 hours ago, Zeus said:

But does Mr. V really have that much experience with speakers?

 

I do hope you are kidding...

B