2Cs to 3A Signatures - more is better, yes?

[house_of_abernathy]

I've found a reasonably priced pair of used 3A Signatures I'm strongly considering. I've had my 2Cs about 7 years and absolutely adore them, but have had my eye on the Model 3s for awhile, always been curious how they might best my 2Cs . Unlike the Model 2s, the naming convention of the 3s hasn't changed with upgrade evolutions. The seller claims theses 3s are from 1990-1995 based on serial numbers: 1114 and 1115. 

What, if any, internal upgrades should I consider if bought this specific pair? Have the 3As had any significant upgrades since way back then? Should these be a significant upgrade to my trusty 2Cs? Appreciate any advice, thanks!

[GdnrBob]

I owned the 3a sigs before my Treo's, and they were quite nice.

Mind you, I only got the 3's due to hearing the original 2's nearly 30 years prior. I heard the 2's in the early 80's, and the sound was so good that I remembered it. Fast forward a few decades, and I finally had some money to burn and the 3a sigs were available.

Though I can't compare the two directly, I can say the 3a sigs have a better lower end reach than the 2's, as well as some better performing drivers and internal components than the 2c's, though Mr. V. probably can provide better info.

I know budget affects most of us, but have to say that if you can swing  for a pair of used Treo's, you would be moving your system forward in a significant way. If not, then the 3a sigs would be a great upgrade, too.

Bob

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, house_of_abernathy said:

I've found a reasonably priced pair of used 3A Signatures I'm strongly considering. I've had my 2Cs about 7 years and absolutely adore them, but have had my eye on the Model 3s for awhile, always been curious how they might best my 2Cs . Unlike the Model 2s, the naming convention of the 3s hasn't changed with upgrade evolutions. The seller claims theses 3s are from 1990-1995 based on serial numbers: 1114 and 1115. 

What, if any, internal upgrades should I consider if bought this specific pair? Have the 3As had any significant upgrades since way back then? Should these be a significant upgrade to my trusty 2Cs? Appreciate any advice, thanks!

While the thought of hot rodding the speakers seems attractive emotionally, they either sound good as is, or they do not.

I know that a lot of people like to throw special capacitors and inductors inside, and do that… but the crossover is generally tuned to the drivers at the factory, so I think I would just use them as is  myself.

[house_of_abernathy]

19 minutes ago, Holmz said:

While the thought of hot rodding the speakers seems attractive emotionally, they either sound good as is, or they do not.

I know that a lot of people like to throw special capacitors and inductors inside, and do that… but the crossover is generally tuned to the drivers at the factory, so I think I would just use them as is  myself.

For sure, I was just curious if any of the components had any significant updates I should be aware of, compared to the 3As being sold today.  I'm definitely not interested in modifying just for the sake of modding. 

[MNSki]

I’d be surprised if there were not some changes along the way, but I had an early pair of 3A signatures as well. Their original owner was Audio Research. The employee who I bought them from said they used them to demo a four channel set up. My speakers before that were 2ce. I remembering it being a very nice upgrade.  Certainly a fuller, more refined sound with the bass being much more impactful.

Edited August 14, 2023 by MNSki
Typo

[Richard Vandersteen]

There were many changes over the years without any change in their model number.  Drivers, caps and tuning over the years.  The Model 3 series is near its end as the cabinet noise masks much of any further development's sonic improvements.  This is why the TREO was developed with its box in a box silent enclosure and elimination of the structural diffraction (shared by the QUATRO CT, KENTO and SEVEN) components of the 3 series.  In its present state it still is an amazing speaker with great bass but everything above the bass is bettered significantly by the TREO CT.  RV

[house_of_abernathy]

10 minutes ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

There were many changes over the years without any change in their model number.  Drivers, caps and tuning over the years.... it still is an amazing speaker with great bass but everything above the bass is bettered significantly by the TREO CT.  RV

Thanks very much Mr. V, that's very helpful to know! I'm a few years away from Treo CT budget, maybe these 3's will be a mild but fun upgrade for now. 

[GdnrBob]

@house_of_abernathy,

There is still the non-CT Treo, which can be had for a very reasonable cost, used.

I upgraded from the 3a sigs to the Treo (non CT), and I definitely heard an improvement in sound quality.

Like I said before, if your budget doesn't allow for it, the 3a sigs are definitely an improvement over the 2's, so if the price is right, then go for it.

Bob

[ctsooner]

I would think that the year would matter to hear which one sounds better. Wouldn’t an older model 3 not be up to a newer 2’s standard other than more bass?  Always curious about that. The last two model 2’s have been so special.  Just curious. 

[house_of_abernathy]

6 hours ago, ctsooner said:

I would think that the year would matter to hear which one sounds better. Wouldn’t an older model 3 not be up to a newer 2’s standard other than more bass?  Always curious about that. The last two model 2’s have been so special.  Just curious. 

Yes, that's what I was thinking as well. My 2Cs are likely from 84-86, whereas these 3As are nearly as old at circa 90-95. (I was really hoping they would be newer, but, it's what's available). I'm gonna pull the trigger on them since I've never seen 3As or Treos available used in my area. I have to assume there will be a noticeable  improvement, but I'll take this as a small step up the Vandersteen ladder for now since cost is manageable. I'll report back once I get them in room and up to full speed.

[GdnrBob]

Given that your 2's are from the 80's, I have no doubt that the 3a sigs will perform much better.

Just remember to get the tilt adjusted properly.

B

[MNSki]

Awesome, you’ll love them! I had the same era 3A sig and they were great. 

[Holmz]

16 hours ago, ctsooner said:

I would think that the year would matter to hear which one sounds better. Wouldn’t an older model 3 not be up to a newer 2’s standard other than more bass?  Always curious about that. The last two model 2’s have been so special.  Just curious. 

The old 2C are not bad, and one might say that they are somewhat nice.
A poorly set up 3 would not be better than a well set up 2 (IMO) - but who knows???

Then what is there what makes the newer evolutions better?
I would think lower distortion drivers and better XOs.
It is not clear that the majority of people strive for low distortion. I would think that a flat response might be more easily appreciated.
Whether the other objective differences are easily heard and appreciated is also unknown.

in any case, back in the day, there were not a lot of speakers with 1st order XOs… (yeah more then than today 😃 )
And there were few that had the idea of baffle distortion in 80s.

I might be wrong, but they were special then… and the evolutions since then, were not revolutions.

The pistonic driver is a revolution.
And there’s making linear drivers is a revolution.
And the box in a box is a revolution.

The dual opposing subwoofers are a revolution, but don’t the external HPF XOs and stand alone subs, get one most of the way there?

I sometimes think that a new set of model 2 would better, but then I listen and it makes no sense, and the old ones sound great.

On the surface I would think that a 3 > 2 and a 2 > 1… but a 1b and sub should really hold its own against a 2.
And a model 7 is probably not 3-1/2 x better than a 2.

But I dunno…

[ctsooner]

It’s all subjective.  The 7 can’t even be compared to a 2 or 3.  Also they will used different components.  Jmho. 

[GdnrBob]

Given the technological improvements in the last 20 years, I think the materials in the 3a sigs have to be considerably better than the ones in the 2's from the 80's.

It might not be dramatic, but definitely noticeable when listening.-Most likely being smoother and more defined.

My 2 cents..

B

[Richard Vandersteen]

Technological improvements and materials are why todays 2Ce Signature III can outperforms 15 year + Model 3A/Signature's.  I am a car nut and love old cars, but today's technology is amazing with higher mileage and more horsepower!  Too bad it costs so much (kind of like audio).  RV

[house_of_abernathy]

My goal is ultimately to own Vandersteen's made in  this century. It's been a slow climb up that product ladder, but I'll get there! 🙂

[GdnrBob]

20 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

I am a car nut and love old cars, but today's technology is amazing with higher mileage and more horsepower! 

Much of it due to computers.

My little Audi TTs is a dream on wheels, but I dread the day that one of the electronic components goes astray after the warranty.😨

Bob

[Holmz]

An early Honda civic bears almost no resemblance to the modern Civic Type R, but it is “an evolution.”

I suppose that we could look at speakers like Dutch-n-Dutch or the Genelecs, as the digital equivalent to ABS and stability control.
But bolting a computer, and sensors, onto a heavy steel chassis, does not fundamentally change the basic characteristics of how it performs.

Carbon tweeters, pistonic drivers, and cabinets which do not resonate, are more akin to cars that use alloy and compostits in their construction, and deviate away from just adding power and brute force. Maybe in search for some handling.
Yeah, I suppose that one can use a DSP to mitigate cabinet resonances with nulls strategically placed… but it is sometimes better to avoid using more mechanisms to prevent disaster than to just add them on top of a basically poor design.
(I think that the early TT had something like 50 and 60 pounds of lift at 120mph. 
Generally down force is considered a better design goal than up force, but it is weighs a lot, then I guess that helps?.)

Back to speakers… Do I want a speaker with poor impulse response, and then use a FIR based DSP, (e.g. DIRAC-live) to fix it?
(Both can get us to a similar place in terms of time domain response.)

And the basic design of 2 was not flawed to start with. So yeah, the evolutions help, but it was not looking like an early Civic.

[Boom Boom]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:29 AM, house_of_abernathy said:

I've found a reasonably priced pair of used 3A Signatures I'm strongly considering. I've had my 2Cs about 7 years and absolutely adore them, but have had my eye on the Model 3s for awhile, always been curious how they might best my 2Cs . Unlike the Model 2s, the naming convention of the 3s hasn't changed with upgrade evolutions. The seller claims theses 3s are from 1990-1995 based on serial numbers: 1114 and 1115. 

What, if any, internal upgrades should I consider if bought this specific pair? Have the 3As had any significant upgrades since way back then? Should these be a significant upgrade to my trusty 2Cs? Appreciate any advice, thanks!

I'm curious as to whether you splurge and get the 3's. Please let us know if you get them.

I was excited about the 3's but they would sound much better in a larger listening room than what I've got. I've read many reviews on the model 2's and was aware of the sound dispersion interference effect on performance caused by the dowels used to wrap the sock/hose cloth around the speakers. It doesn't surprise me from RV's response that the model 3 also was affected.

If your goal is to eventually move to the more modern Vandersteens that don't have this issue, you might want to save your pennies and plan to buy one of those treos or other models up with the newer cabinet design. If you want to fill a large room with more sound than with your model 2s in the interim, you might want to get the 3's.

😀

[ctsooner]

I’d love to hear the new twos with no dowels or cloth. Maybe just set behind a “cloth” curtain. I’m sure the crossovers are somehow tuned with the dowels etc.  I’m heading back to listen to some music now lol

[Richard Vandersteen]

Don't fall into that naive trap.  Have your significant other hold two broom handles to the outside of her mouth slightly forward and tell me you can hear them.  It's not the dowels or top it's the lack off a box in a box cabinet for the woofer where most the energy is.  RV

[Holmz]

3 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Don't fall into that naive trap.  Have your significant other hold two broom handles to the outside of her mouth slightly forward and tell me you can hear them.  It's not the dowels or top it's the lack off a box in a box cabinet for the woofer where most the energy is.  RV

^This^ is a naive trap!

My advice is to never mention or suggest that one holds a broom, let alone two of them. 😃 

 

 

[Boom Boom]

7 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Don't fall into that naive trap.  Have your significant other hold two broom handles to the outside of her mouth slightly forward and tell me you can hear them.  It's not the dowels or top it's the lack off a box in a box cabinet for the woofer where most the energy is.  RV

It's interesting to see the designer / manufacturer dispel rumors set by reviewers. Stereophile publishes graphs and tries to explain the measurements in the graphs in terms of what they hear from the speakers and the speakers cross over designs.

Not sure what their standards are for setting up the tests. It's obvious that speakers interact with the rooms which makes it hard to predict how they will sound in your listening room.  My understanding is that Vandersteen started to address room interaction on bass response by building the subwoofer amps into the speakers starting with the Model 5 for models that reproduce lower bass. There's other techniques used such as equalization adjustments to optimize these designs for home use. This makes the speaker setups fussy but rewarding when done properly. My experience with my Vandersteens is they sound better once setup in my home than during the demo.

[stratocaster]

9 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

Don't fall into that naive trap.  Have your significant other hold two broom handles to the outside of her mouth slightly forward and tell me you can hear them.  It's not the dowels or top it's the lack off a box in a box cabinet for the woofer where most the energy is.  RV

@Richard Vandersteen you have a lot of faith in the members of this forum to convince their significant others to hold two and not one broom for an experiment/test that they  have the remotest of desire and interest in….i am fine with dowel deflected soundwaves than have something shaped like a dowel hurtling down my way…