Gsal Posted November 18, 2023 Author Share Posted November 18, 2023 11 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said: My XTRM's are 18 feet apart and my listening chair is 19 1/2, FWIW. RV BIG room! Wish I had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus13 Posted November 20, 2023 Share Posted November 20, 2023 Quatro CTs are 10’ 6” apart, 10’ 3” to listening position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsal Posted November 20, 2023 Author Share Posted November 20, 2023 Resolved my "problem". Moved the speakers to 5' from the front wall and 3' from the side walls. Speakers are 83" apart. HUGE difference. Deep, deep soundstage that extends beyond the the speaker sides as well. I have finally achieved the soundstage I've always coveted. Now listening at a distance of about 1.3X away. Get your speakers out into the room if at all possible! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratocaster Posted November 20, 2023 Share Posted November 20, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gsal said: Resolved my "problem". Moved the speakers to 5' from the front wall and 3' from the side walls. Speakers are 83" apart. HUGE difference. Deep, deep soundstage that extends beyond the the speaker sides as well. I have finally achieved the soundstage I've always coveted. Now listening at a distance of about 1.3X away. Get your speakers out into the room if at all possible! How large is your room to get 5 feet behind the speakers. Currently mine are all the way to the corners and about 18 inches from the rear wall. Edited November 20, 2023 by stratocaster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsal Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 21 hours ago, stratocaster said: How large is your room to get 5 feet behind the speakers. Currently mine are all the way to the corners and about 18 inches from the rear wall. My room is about 22' long and 14' wide with an alcove about half way up off the right wall. I will take a current picture and replace the old one in my profile shortly and you can see the arrangement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeske Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 My setup Brian 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomicTime Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 bravo Brian ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 Brian knows construction lol. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus13 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) It would be interesting to know about everyone’s approximate toe-in as well. I’m finding it to be as impactful as listening distance and speaker separation. As little as a quarter inch changes the sound. My Quatro CTs are: 10’ 6” apart, 10’ 3” to listening position, 7 degrees of toe-in. Edited November 30, 2023 by ursus13 Font size was too big 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratocaster Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 Amazing job Brian! Thanks for sharing...It certainly helps people like me understand how close/far other stuff is in the room. I am always fretting with the placement and positioning of the speakers and the amount of stuff that is packed in the room. I can see from your diagram that you have a lot of items that can provide natural diffusion.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Vandersteen Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 3 hours ago, ursus13 said: It would be interesting to know about everyone’s approximate toe-in as well. I’m finding it to be as impactful as listening distance and speaker separation. As little as a quarter inch changes the sound. My Quatro CTs are: 10’ 6” apart, 10’ 3” to listening position, 7 degrees of toe-in. Toe will be different in every room because it will depend on taste, distance to side wall, amount of diffusion near the speakers, distance to listener and if the speakers have symmetry with the side walls. RV 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus13 Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Richard Vandersteen said: Toe will be different in every room because it will depend on taste, distance to side wall, amount of diffusion near the speakers, distance to listener and if the speakers have symmetry with the side walls. RV Would speaker and listener distances be effected by the same variables (room geometry and size, personal taste, diffusion, etc)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Vandersteen Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, ursus13 said: Would speaker and listener distances be affected by the same variables (room geometry and size, personal taste, diffusion, etc)? Using dimensions/ratios/angles that other people have success with even in similar rooms is a guarantee of less than optimum performance but may be a place to start. Each listener needs to do the experimentation in their room to have a hope of MAX performance! This does not need to be done immediately but should be tweaked over time as this is part of the sport. RV 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeske Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 9 hours ago, stratocaster said: Amazing job Brian! Thanks for sharing...It certainly helps people like me understand how close/far other stuff is in the room. I am always fretting with the placement and positioning of the speakers and the amount of stuff that is packed in the room. I can see from your diagram that you have a lot of items that can provide natural diffusion.. I’ve had that same drawing, except revised and updated, since my first pair of 1C’s. I always keep the old ones to to go back and see what may have worked in the past too. But, the room furnishings and equipment has changed quite a bit. And the drawing always updated. My first step is always look at the uneven grid Richard references in his manuals laid out on the drawing at the speaker location. Been the same since the 1C’s. I can never get exact because of other restrictions, but not sure that is absolutely critical. Interesting that my current Treo setup (shown) is closer to the suggested grid (1/5 width and length) than either my 1C’s or 2CE II Sig’s (I use for rear speakers in multi channel), ever were. I also employ Jim Smiths 83% width to distance recommendation, and that has worked very well for me. Its a small cozy home, a ‘bachelor pad’, which serves me perfectly living alone. I actually have a lot of absorption in the room just from furnishings, so only have some minor absorption panels on the walls ‘behind’ the speakers on each side of the fireplace. Other than that, some diffusion panels (tiles) that I also use ‘behind’ the speakers on the side walls, and more on each side of the walls next to the 2CE II Sigs. Other than that, I let the room do its thing, but probably more dampened than it should be, so yea, anything to diffuse in my setup is helpful. All in all, pleasantly surprise how big my Treo’s (and other Vandy’s) make my room sound. Pretty great imaging, sound stage depth and width, yada yada. One thing that has always worked for me, in my room, is getting the speakers out into the room. Otherwise the soundstage collapses on me. I’m pleased, but always tweaking when I get bored. 🙂 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsal Posted December 1, 2023 Author Share Posted December 1, 2023 I must say that after moving my Quatros out into the room and away from the sidewalls I am now quite happy with the 83% listening position. Live and learn or should I say experiment and learn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Edwards Posted December 15, 2023 Share Posted December 15, 2023 On 11/17/2023 at 5:20 PM, Richard Vandersteen said: My XTRM's are 18 feet apart and my listening chair is 19 1/2, FWIW. RV Richard has a large room! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 I finally got around to something I wish I tried decades ago. I moved my sofa a few inches away from the back wall. This made a big difference. Now with a better preamp, it is easier to discern what was happening. The former listening position had a peak in the treble and a null in the bass. So highs calmed down and bass became more full. Soundstage height and depth came back. My former preamp had twice the gain, so it was harder to hear this as I didn't have the range in volume adjustment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomicTime Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 There almost always a bass node within 2’ of the wall ! good on ya boom. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomicTime Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 it is often a cancellation node… 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) On 12/1/2023 at 12:05 PM, bkeske said: ... 🙂 is that insert for the fireplace sealed? I picked up some rockwool a while back, and the sewing machine is supposed to output some bags to put them in to keep the fibres inside… sort of a velocity trap (I think). Edited January 18 by Holmz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeske Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 20 hours ago, Holmz said: is that insert for the fireplace sealed? I picked up some rockwool a while back, and the sewing machine is supposed to output some bags to put them in to keep the fibres inside… sort of a velocity trap (I think). No, just some diffusion panels over the fireplace screen/opening. It made a nice improvement to the soundstage vs the open fireplace/screen. Brian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Edwards Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 On 11/16/2023 at 2:31 PM, ctsooner said: Rutan setup my speakers to be in the corners of the room. They are a full 16’ apart and i only sit about 10’ from the speakers as that’s the best i can do in the room. I can’t move the speakers (as most know i have MS), so this is where I’m at in the equation. They sound great, but I would love to bring them in much closer together someday to play with the way i had the Treo’s set up before Bob took them from my home ;). They were singing that day he got them. I personally am going to wait to get Richard’s preamp in the system and let it cook. Then I’ll be able to possibly get someone over to help me set them up. Then I’ll need to redo the bass once i get the best position. it will be well worth it. I may even pay to have Samir come up as he’s incredible setting things up. When I bought my Quatros from one of his customers, he did the same with me Pete, albeit from one side of the country to the other via phone. I left them in that configuration for a while, only occasionally experimenting with distance from the back wall and toe-in. When it was suggested to me that I move them closer together (by Paul McGowan of all people), I just figured, well, he doesn't know Vandersteens. No knock on Rutan whatsoever, but when I did close the gap, the improvement in clarity and separation was significant. I've since brought them closer together a couple more times (at about an inch each time) and the SQ continues to improve. And now, for the first time in years, I've got them positioned straight out, no toe-in. So far, that has provided the best imaging. As RV and TomicTime say, experimentation is a low cost upgrade. Hopefully, you can / will have someone over that can help you "experiment." And the beat goes on ........... Play on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Vandersteen Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 37 minutes ago, Steve Edwards said: When I bought my Quatros from one of his customers, he did the same with me Pete, albeit from one side of the country to the other via phone. I left them in that configuration for a while, only occasionally experimenting with distance from the back wall and toe-in. When it was suggested to me that I move them closer together (by Paul McGowan of all people), I just figured, well, he doesn't know Vandersteens. No knock on Rutan whatsoever, but when I did close the gap, the improvement in clarity and separation was significant. I've since brought them closer together a couple more times (at about an inch each time) and the SQ continues to improve. And now, for the first time in years, I've got them positioned straight out, no toe-in. So far, that has provided the best imaging. As RV and TomicTime say, experimentation is a low cost upgrade. Hopefully, you can / will have someone over that can help you "experiment." And the beat goes on ........... Play on Steve, remember when you move the speakers the room EQ is off and needs to be retuned! Be careful because many find clarity better when they accidentally find a location with simply less base. The true evaluation is not complete until the room EQ is corrected. A wide spread tends to engage the room boundaries and gives a big robust sound which is attractive but at the expense of clarity and imaging. Moving the speakers' father away from the boundaries (side or rear is the same effect) increases the direct sound/room sound ratio until they are 1/3 dimensions and starts to take on the sound of headphones (I hate). Everybody has to find their own preference which is usually a blend of both. RV 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomicTime Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 ….. and Steve…i’m available to help you retune to about April 01….. when i turn into a fish chasing fool 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsooner Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Jim, you should come visit me after fishing season!!!! 🙂. oh, would you please bring your RS meter.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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