New Home/New Listening Room

[500Homeruns]

My wife and I are building a new home and I will have a dedicated listening room above the garage. Dimension wise (23’x11’), it’s probably not the ideal “golden ratio” for a listening room, but it should be much better than the room (basement) I am currently set up in. One issue I might have to deal with is the clipped (angled) ceiling.

I am trying to figure out the best placement for my Treo CT’s in this new room. 
 

I will post a few pictures of the room from the new construction drawings.

Also, a picture of my current set up.

Thanks for any advice.

Steve

 

[bkeske]

@500Homeruns welcome to the forum! 
 

As a residential architectural designer, I understand perfectly, nicely posted.

IMO, I think this could be a very nice room, and the ‘clipped’ ceiling may actually help. If it were me, I think I would put them on either side of the window, firing long into the room.  11’ might be a little tight to ‘side’ fire that space. Distance to the window wall will have to be experimented with, but I would follow the guidelines in the manual. I know if it was Johnny Rutan giving advice, he would place them close to the side walls, always 😄 

I would keep the equipment from between the speakers and put them off to the side, perhaps just the power amps on the floor between.  It’s a long room, so my feeling is your sitting area may be 12-15’ from the speakers, but really depends on how the room reacts. 

After finding a good spot to provide a wide and deep depth of soundstage and imaging, then you may improve things with absorption and diffusion panels. 
 

Should be a fun project nonetheless!

Edited January 23, 2022 by bkeske

[500Homeruns]

Thanks for the reply!

That is some great information and I should be able to follow it to a “T”.

One thing I did not mention is that I am seriously considering NOT having that window (or any window) in the room.

I will take your advice and place my audio rack (turntable, phono pre, preamp) closer to where the listening position will be (or a little behind it). I will just pre-wire two runs of XLR cables to go to the monoblocks behind the speakers.

[bkeske]

Well, it would be nice to have some natural light. You may want to consider a high square window instead of the longer double hung (half the size of what the drawing shows, and maintaining the head height).  That may also help with the sound reflections against the hall between the speakers vs. a full window.  Little things like that can really help or mess-up the soundstage and imaging. But a higher square window may work fine, and if nothing else, you could install a blind that could allow light in but also provide absorption/diffusion.

Good luck!

Edited January 23, 2022 by bkeske

[bkeske]

The other option would be to add front or rear dormers for windows, but, recessed side niche's as that can be more problematic and a help.

[bkeske]

 Correction:

……side niche's as that can be more problematic than a help.

[GdnrBob]

If you don't put the window in the far wall, what about a sky light or window along ridge? 

Also, are you going to insulate the floor and walls?

B 

[500Homeruns]

Floor and walls will be well insulated.

Unless there would be a negative (sound wise) to NOT having a window, I really don’t think I want it in the room.

Edited January 23, 2022 by 500Homeruns

[bkeske]

Of course the window has no positive effect on sound 😉

if you are comfortable without, go without. That is simply a personal preference, I prefer some natural light if I can get it, but glass is terrible for sonics.

[TomicTime]

some thoughts on helping w similar room over a garage on Long Island. …

1.) with the clipped walls, nodes will be hard to calculate in advance..but… i think speakers on the short wall most likely to sound best. Even tho the Treo in particular does quite well fairly close to tge back wall. Move them out too far and mid bass slam is going to suffer. Mine are about 11” from back of cabinet to wall on the inside. Remember the Treo has a frequency response shaping grill, so the impact of tge window is relatively low and there are excellent acoustic curtains available…. i personally like a lot of natural light, so i would put in a clearstory window up high..just me.

2.) I would specify two layers of drywall w green glue between and screwed. IF not get quietrock 5/8.

3.) Consider the floor span in the garage and truss spec and size, your sub and Treo that are flat to 40 hz are going to move the floor. Hopefully the joists are running the short direction. 

4.) I would do a glued down prefinished engineered hardwood floor w area rugs. Hardood floor will facilitate XLR without cable risers.

5.) given you have monoblocks w XLR, preplan for amps both places ( long and short walls ) with minimum hospital grade outlets. Make sure the audio room circuits are opposite leg of main panel than motors ( heat pump, AC, freezer, refrigerator )

6.) i would consider a quality entry door , solid core w eatger tripping grade seal

7.) Address heating and cooling with low noise ducts and grilles, or consider a dedicated mini solit heat pump just for this room.

8.) think about counter space / cabinets for records, record cleaning machine, etc….

9.) Avoid dimmers like the plague…

Hopefully this helps, looks like you already have a superfine system, wishing you all the best in your new home !

Jim

[TomicTime]

i would not run the XLR or any signal cables in wall…

[JonM]

What Jim said about double drywall with green glue… do look at this. It doesn’t cost much and any drywall crew can do it. If you get into floating walls and clips, that becomes a science project and it’s non trivial.  For insulation, do look at some of the quieter mineral wools. 
 

Consider Advantech brand sub flooring for the whole house but especially here. They make up to 1-1/8 thick, all their stuff is tongue and groove and *generations* better than plywood.  I used Advantech in my last house, once you have it’s obvious and you can never go back.  They make Zip siding and roofing panels that are equally impressive. 
 

I get deleting the window… in last house I built a dedicated theater and totally pissed off the architect by deleting the windows altogether (was right choice!). But, you might consider skylights?  Small Velux ones that can open?  Just an idea. 
 

Do run dedicated 20 amp power if it’s not too late also. 

[JonM]

If you do have conventional HVAC ducts, look for the large, linear plenums and grills. Nothing like what you’d find at Home Depot or Lowes, I can get you a link of you need it. The airspeed will slow down if the openings are bigger and they will be quieter. Mini splits are great for sound and performance too. 

[Holmz]

Along the lines of what Jim mentioned…

I did the Mrs counselling room in 5/8” with green glue.
The solid core door had the drop down seal.
It was well insulated.

LED lights and dimmers spray a bunch of diode clipping out the lines.
However we use incandescent most in the main room… and it is getting harder to avoid LEDs

A window can be nice to look out of.
And a curtain is an option.

Or at least have it framed it like a window will be there, and then of it needs to go in later, the header is already in place.

 

1 hour ago, TomicTime said:

i would not run the XLR or any signal cables in wall…

If one did want them in the wall, then a conduit allows different cables to be sucked through later.
I would not do them “in a wall” without a plastic conduit.

[TomicTime]

https://www.acoustic-curtains.com/curtains/acoustic-curtains/

Local to me shop.

[bkeske]

I’ve heard mixed opinions of green glue. It remains playable, so yes, it is good for damping and limiting the transmission of sound from one room (or space) to another. Soundproofing  is it’s primary purpose, but that isn’t always  a concern *within* a ‘stand alone’ audio room itself. I’ve heard some room audio technicians/consultants feel it can be actually bad for a rooms acoustics,  primarily mids and voices. Over dampened? I believe there can be a difference between ‘sound transmission control’ and creating a room for ‘best’ acoustics within it. I think these two strategies and solutions can get intertwined when maybe they shouldn’t.  The common issue is the control  of vibration from sound waves.

I haven’t personally come to any conclusions on when or where the best use of a product like green glue should be used. But, my gut feeling is a layer of 5/8” vs 1/2” drywall may be sufficient in many cases simply as it would provide additional stiffness to the structure itself (although if you look at various UL acoustical testing reports and rated designs, there is not a lot of difference between the two in that respect). Perhaps drywall installed on resilient channels is a good option, but only if the installer knows what they are doing (which will be rare in residential drywall work, as it is more a commercial application), as a poorly installed resilient system can be worse than installing without.

This really depends on how serious you want to get with the ‘acoustics’ of the basic construction elements themselves. You could go down a deep rabbit hole here, and some solutions may be better dealt with with acoustical treatments after the room is finished, as necessary, in a less costly way. But, If you want to get more serious about this now, before the structure is built, I would find a local acoustic consultant in your area that could provide you with various options based on what you want to achieve within your budget, and then work directly with your builder on incorporating those options into the rooms construction from rough to finish. Obviously it would be nice to have finish space that works acoustically without the need for various panels tacked around your room (as example).

That said, yes, HVAC, electrical, and finish issues, problems, and solutions to help create good acoustics within a room can be very important. Both Jim and  Jon have brought up valid ideas and concerns for consideration. As example, mini splits are great, I’ve used them for a variety of reasons, and sometimes they are the best choice to solve a particular problem, but keep in mind, you *can* spend almost as much on that equipment as a single furnace and AC unit for your entire home (not a home with two furnaces).

 

[Holmz]

1 hour ago, bkeske said:

I’ve heard mixed opinions of green glue. It remains playable, so yes, it is good for damping and limiting the transmission of sound from one room (or space) to another. Soundproofing  is it’s primary purpose, but that isn’t always  a concern *within* a ‘stand alone’ audio room itself. I’ve heard some room audio technicians/consultants feel it can be actually bad for a rooms acoustics,  primarily mids and voices. Over dampened? I believe there can be a difference between ‘sound transmission control’ and creating a room for ‘best’ acoustics within it. I think these two strategies and solutions can get intertwined when maybe they shouldn’t.  The common issue is the control  of vibration from sound waves.
….

Good point!

The Mrs counselling room, was exactly about soundproofing, and not at all for audio.

[ctsooner]

honest question?  Is is better or less money or both to just build a solid room, joists running the short length and just do mild room treatments?  I don't know the costs of all the engineered products and double dry wall etc..  Just doing the door, moving the window and making sure the AC registers are larger openings along with mild treatments could sound just as good.  

Again, just a question.

 

[bkeske]

Houses, or any building, is structurally designed to meet local/state code requirements for LB per Ft loading for both floor and roof loading. Thus, it  does not necessarily matter which way the structure runs, as long as the structural elements are capable of meeting the loads for their span. Now, I could probably assume how the room references will be structured. In that case (a room within the roof structure itself) in most all cases will be run the same direction as you want the floor joists and roof structure to be tied together. It is also very possible that that room could be created by using what we call 'garage storage trusses', in that the roof truss is designed by including the area of the room within the truss design. Which is better? Well, I would need to know more about the structural drawings to make a better assessment by checking calculations for loading.  Now, one thing to keep in mind, in most all states and municipalities, the required load  for first floor loads is 50 lb per ft total loading (live and dead) and the required loading for second floors is 40 lb per ft total. Personally? I tend to structure my homes the same 50 lb per ft on both floors, which exceeds the structural code requirements. I also tend to over structurally  engineer my roof structures. Bottom line, you could ask for the floor structure to be 50 lb per ft in lieu of 40 lb, and the cost will not be much. Roof structures can range widely depending on climate in a particular area. In northeastern Ohio, I usually design my roofs to 'carry' about 60-70 lp per ft, it can be lower on other part of the state simply because of projected snow loads. In Texas (where I have designed homes) it is incredibly less, or about 30 lb per ft.  

Now, can you 'over engineer' a structure or part of a structure on purpose? Of course, I do it all the time.  But, many builders only like to meet the code requirements to keep costs down. What are you trying to achieve?

Same with insulation, there are minimum R-value requirements for walls, ceilings/roofs, and in this case, floors over unconditioned space. These requirements have become more thermally strict over the course of 20-30 years, to the point that we no longer really use 2x4 studs for exterior walls anymore, as there is not 3 1/2" insulation to meet the current codes of R-21. Over the last few years, most all exterior walls are now 2x6's in order the achieve that requirement. Similar requirements have increased for ceilings/roofs. 

My point being, there is a baseline that all structures must be built to, and in most all cases, they are better than just 20-30 years ago in order to make structures more structurally and thermally 'sound'.

Edited January 24, 2022 by bkeske

[JonM]

My experience was the double drywall was only a couple hundred dollars more, plus the cost of the glue in 5 gallon buckets.  This was for an 18x24x10 theater with cove lighting.  It wasn't much.  I think the cost is small compared to a cable upgrade and the benefit is good.  Although with covid material pricing, who knows!

When you get into rooms-within-rooms and horse stall mats for damping under carpet, gluing double drywall into joist bays between floors, mufflers for HVAC in and out, etc. it gets very expensive and complicated, and IMO diminishing returns.

Edited January 24, 2022 by JonM

[bkeske]

Believe me, as I am involved in both design, design/build, and cost estimating for building, costs have gone up across the board, especially during COVID. I doubt you could double a drywall room of that size room for only a couple hundred bucks.  For labor and material costs to install drywall (not finish) you should figure $1 per ft for surface square ft area. Double that for double drywall, then add for finishing (taping, mud, sanding). Now, again, that is here. Cost for these things can range across the country for a variety of reasons.

Edited January 24, 2022 by bkeske

[ctsooner]

1 hour ago, bkeske said:

Believe me, as I am involved in both design, design/build, and cost estimating for building, costs have gone up across the board, especially during COVID. I doubt you could double a drywall room of that size room for only a couple hundred bucks.  For labor and material costs to install drywall (not finish) you should figure $1 per ft for surface square ft area. Double that for double drywall, then add for finishing (taping, mud, sanding). Now, again, that is here. Cost for these things can range across the country for a variety of reasons.

I’d love to talk soon. Long story but I am thinking about building a lake cottage on land I own north of Wausau. Wife’s family summer place that they let fall into disrepair. Has to be taken down etc. not sure I want to rebuild or not. Would love a consult if that’s ok. If not that s cool too 

[Richard Vandersteen]

2 hours ago, bkeske said:

Believe me, as I am involved in both design, design/build, and cost estimating for building, costs have gone up across the board, especially during COVID. I doubt you could double a drywall room of that size room for only a couple hundred bucks.  For labor and material costs to install drywall (not finish) you should figure $1 per ft for surface square ft area. Double that for double drywall, then add for finishing (taping, mud, sanding). Now, again, that is here. Cost for these things can range across the country for a variety of reasons.

The cost should not be double because the first layer is installed vertically with just enough screws to hold it up.  The second layer is glued with Green Glue and screwed at code centers horizontally.  Use a hand textured finish that is not smooth.  I threw a hand full of sand in the mud so that the trowel would give some dimension to the texture.  Anything you do to get symmetry with the correct ratios will make a good room.  Then get the significant other help diffuse with furnishings.  Worked for me!

RV

[bkeske]

You are correct Richard, there *should be* efficiency/lower cost  while installing the first layer.

[bkeske]

1 hour ago, ctsooner said:

I’d love to talk soon. Long story but I am thinking about building a lake cottage on land I own north of Wausau. Wife’s family summer place that they let fall into disrepair. Has to be taken down etc. not sure I want to rebuild or not. Would love a consult if that’s ok. If not that s cool too 

Would love to talk to you about it. Message me and we can chat.