Upgrade 2C —> Treo CT, Quatro, Kento?

[Holmz]

I know this is like asking the choir to sing out a hallelujah during the sermon… But I has to ask…

But what is the difference one hears when moving from a 2C to Treo CT, Quatro and Kento?
My perception is that the 1, 2 and 3 are somewhat of dipoles. And that these three are not as sensitive “in the front wall to speaker” constraints like the 2C.

Before I lash out on a trip interstate… or internationally, can people help me intellectually understand what’s up with them?
(Probably leaning towards TreoCT)

 

The last listening experience to the Kentos was when that shop’s ARC amp was intermittent.
And I had been fretting about the speaker and preamp or amp being a bit imbalanced, for the last year + and thought maybe it was my ears.

Running the phono stage into the DAC/ADC shows that the channel imbalance exists there. But I’ll work on the TT and the new cart this week.

The 2C still sound so good that I am still not sure what I would be gaining, other than maybe easier room placement, and the pistonic driver (Is it the MR or the woofer?) and probably lower distortion tweeter. And with the box rather than dipole… I guess it should be way different.

And I have a trip in Feb so I need to start chin scratching.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Holmz

[ctsooner]

You have to listen of course, but I found that the Quatro’s are the sweet spot dollar wise. That’s said, those Kento’s are so special. So close to the 7’ compared with Quatro’s to Kentos if that makes sense.  It’s all about doing bass better and better. That’s where it gets expensive for all makers. It cleans up everything and sounds larger as you go up. 

[Richard Vandersteen]

This is a great question!  Recently Brad and I did a seminar tour to several dealers.  One of them converted the whole store to a Vandersteen display with our amplifiers on all of them.  I remember commenting to Brad that for the first time in 45 years I was able to hear as we went from room to room quickly how "they all sound the same"!  This is because they all are based on the R & D 45 years ago that created the original Model Two: minimum baffles, first order crossovers, one driver per frequency (except in the bass), time alignment, phase correct and the ability to pass a square wave.  True the newer ones are domestically more acceptable and when affordable they all have room "EQ" and will always be as this is the only way to get SOTA performance, IMO.  As your investment increases, you get better components, better and more exotic cones and domes, they get more transparent, more dynamic (nothing to do with loudness) contrast, lower distortion, lower frequency response, more silent cabinet and less timbrel coloration.  As an example, the Quatro CT (it has just as little baffle around the drivers as the Model Two) has some of all of the above and explains why some months we ship more of them than any other.  They look different but if you look carefully, they all are really the same but none of them are Dipole as bass is always omni.  RV

[ursus13]

I was between the Treo and the Quatro, coming from VLR CTs. Bass extension, seamless woofer integration, and especially the ability to dial the speakers to the room convinced me to go with the Quatros. (I don’t have a designated listening room, I’m in a domestic living room, so I can’t easily treat the room and I can’t place speakers deep into the room.)

[Holmz]

4 hours ago, ursus13 said:

I was between the Treo and the Quatro, coming from VLR CTs. Bass extension, seamless woofer integration, and especially the ability to dial the speakers to the room convinced me to go with the Quatros. (I don’t have a designated listening room, I’m in a domestic living room, so I can’t easily treat the room and I can’t place speakers deep into the room.)

How deep off the wall are they?
(We also have a mixed usage room.)

But just earlier…

4 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

…  As an example, the Quatro CT (it has just as little baffle around the drivers as the Model Two) has some of all of the above and explains why some months we ship more of them than any other.  They look different but if you look carefully, they all are really the same but none of them are Dipole as bass is always omni.  RV

So I think that the Quatro might need as much room as the 2Cs need?

• Do Quatros like being out in the room like the 2C?
• and do the Treo tolerate less “distance off the front wall” better?

 

4 hours ago, ctsooner said:

You have to listen of course, but I found that the Quatro’s are the sweet spot dollar wise. That’s said, those Kento’s are so special. So close to the 7’ compared with Quatro’s to Kentos if that makes sense.  It’s all about doing bass better and better. That’s where it gets expensive for all makers. It cleans up everything and sounds larger as you go up. 

I might have to mock up some cardboard to the size and see if the Haus-Boss would abide them.
One of the reasons for Treos would be to get them a bit more “out of the way”.

On the other hand, while I was impressed with VSM1 as a temporary LF/RF in the HT set up out west, the old 2C where I am at in the dead centre of Au… just blow them away for imaging and depth.
But the VSM1 pair is on the floor, in a bad position under the TV on a hearth at an angle, in a different room, in a different state, with different sources, etc…
(the ICs and speaker cables were the same though 😎 )

 

And.. Thanks

Edited November 20, 2022 by Holmz

[ursus13]

5 minutes ago, Holmz said:

How deep off the wall are they?
(We also have a mixed usage room.)

8” off the wall.

Randy Cooley helped me set them up. We played around with placement. We didn’t find that we preferred them deeper into the room. Especially once we EQed them.

[Holmz]

Thanks @ursus13
 8’ seems like a lot to me.

I have more constraints.

[Richard Vandersteen]

21 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

8” off the wall.

Randy Cooley helped me set them up. We played around with placement. We didn’t find that we preferred them deeper into the room. Especially once we EQed them.

This is an accurate observation as the Quatro CT will get lean in the lower mid-range/upper bass when positioned too far into the room.  In most rooms they should be 2 feet or less.  RV

[ursus13]

46 minutes ago, Holmz said:

8’ seems like a lot to me.

I have more constraints.

8 inches (not feet.) And, I don’t know for sure, but I bet they could go closer. I like the sound at 8” and the space for accessing EQ, cables, etc.

[Holmz]

6 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

8 inches (not feet.) And, I don’t know for sure, but I bet they could go closer. I like the sound at 8” and the space for accessing EQ, cables, etc.

Ok, got it!

200mm 🤭

You post said inches, but I did not believe that it could be anything but feet.
So there is no dipole nature at all in a Quatro?
The only similarity to the 2C is in limitied baffle, and 1st order XO, and time//phase and the direct path sound?

My 2C are 44” from the wall.

[ursus13]

2 minutes ago, Holmz said:

200mm

The inch, I believe, is derived from the width of a thumb. Your thumb or my thumb is anyone’s guess, but that’s how we do it here. 1/12 of a foot, 1/32 of a yard, boil water at 212 and freeze it at 32. Super intuitive.

200mm. Zero confusion.

[BKDad]

FWIW, I just measured and ours are 22.5” inches from the wall, as measured from the top rear of the cabinet.  (Plus 1/4” of toe-in)

Because of the height of our listening couch in combination with the speakers being on granite bases, we use zero tilt.

That’s obviously for our room, probably not anybody else’s.

[GdnrBob]

As I have mentioned in other posts, I got theTreo's due to limited space.

I moved from 3a sigs to the Treo's. To me, it was a significant upgrade. The solid cabinetry, in addition to looking great, improved sound reproduction. Though they sounded similar, the Treo's seemed more 'refined'- the sound seemed more effortless and clear. Like Dr. Evil in Austin Powers movies:

'It had that certain something I can't describe...

Ah, I don't know what'.

If you can swing the Quatro's, get them. If space is limited, like me, then get the Treo's. You can always get the Sub 3 or 2wq's later. Doing so will get you 85% or more to the Quatro's. (-Which is one of the great reasons Vandersteen speakers are such a good buy. You can move upward using what you have and get closer to the next level without having to buy a completely new set of speakers).

Bob

 

[Richard Vandersteen]

3 hours ago, Holmz said:

Ok, got it!

200mm 🤭

You post said inches, but I did not believe that it could be anything but feet.
So there is no dipole nature at all in a Quatro?
The only similarity to the 2C is in limited baffle, and 1st order XO, and time//phase and the direct path sound?

My 2C are 44” from the wall.

The 2C is not dipole, never has been.  RV

[TomicTime]

I had a fellow Vandersteen  owner look at me with some doubt how i so easily and happily move between my 7 and 7 system and the Treo  CT / Sub3 system ? My answer is the heavy dose of shared DNA…. A careful read of RV’s post of basic design tenets ( think more like Ten Commandments…. RV may have come down the mountain with two laser ingraved…. wait for it… Bedrock tablets… but that’s a different movie…. ).   shows a ton of overlap and hyper critical consistency…..

Our Treo are 14” or 355.6” ( if the second can change, i don’t advise getting to married to the mm or…whatever )…

the 7 are out 42” (  1066.8 mm… hopefully Google is correct )

Jim

 

[TomicTime]

But….. aint no free lunch in transducers…. I have owned 1ci, 3A-Sig,  Treo CT , 5A, and 7 now…. i do know what is missing… and i thought long and hard about where to put the venerable and much loved 5a in that list…. I wouldn’t read too much into it…. it’s IMO a toss up on your room, ability to add a Sub3 or two, etc….

Randall - because it’s in your initial post, IF the Kento is really on the table…then you should make every effort… IF the 7 didn’t exist, it’s the BEST speaker on the planet… Likely the Quattro CT the best value..ever…period….

Jim

Edited November 21, 2022 by TomicTime

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

The 2C is not dipole, never has been.  RV

May it is dodgy lore, as I had heard them described that way but never took the socks off.

 

3 hours ago, TomicTime said:

But….. aint no free lunch in transducers…. I have owned 1ci, 3A-Sig,  Treo CT , 5A, and 7 now…. i do know what is missing… and i thought long and hard about where to put the venerable and much loved 5a in that list…. I wouldn’t read too much into it…. it’s IMO a toss up on your room, ability to add a Sub3 or two, etc….

Randall - because it’s in your initial post, IF the Kento is really on the table…then you should make every effort… IF the 7 didn’t exist, it’s the BEST speaker on the planet… Likely the Quattro CT the best value..ever…period….

Jim

I am sure that the new speakers probably sound better, but listening I am not sure how much better.
then there is the WAF and room, so I was thinking more like the Treos.

But I will look at Kentos based upon your suggestion.
And the Quatro based upon Pete’s words.

The shop was closed today, but will get a listening appointment booked and a general chin wag session with them.

[ctsooner]

I’m with Jim.  Go Kento if you can honestly get them.  They are unreal and easy yo set up. Heard them in more than a few set ups and they are so much closer to the 7’s, but should be for that cost. Worth it in audiophile dollars. 
 

I LOvE my Quatro’s with the matching amp.  For my ears, it’s a must. That’s me.  Easy for me to spend others hard earned money though. Fun thread. 

[TomicTime]

Sometimes ya have to go backwards to really appreciate things…. after owning a 500 hp AWD turbo as my daily driver, i had a chance to run my old 300 HP 993…. omg…. same DNA…but BETTER….

Moving up to a lower noise cabinet, better components and better driver technology, especially in the critical midrange ! all yield…. 😉

We kept on extra loaner SOTA table w high end arm and a Dynavector arm as a home demo table….. sometimes they came back….. then about a week later we would get the call……. I called it “ the dirty pool table “…. 

But you are going about it the right way… go out and listen 😉 and enjoy the music and the  journey….

[Brad O]

Currently I have Quatros 14 inches to the rear of the speaker.  I set these several months ago, and I have set a number of systems since then.  Time for a redo over Thanksgiving break, let's see where I end up.  I just set the KĒNTOs at the Capital Audiofest.   I still can't believe Richard put the Model 7 midrange and Model 7 amp, Counterforce 9" drivers, and a High-Density Composite base into the price point. It is an incredible value in its category.  If you have a chance to hear the Treos, Quatros, and KĒNTOs together with your wife, you may find the WAF surprises you.  

[Holmz]

I was back in “adult land” yesterday (work), and will be seeing what the next year brings over the next month or so.

The current room seems too small to really support anything bigger than the Treos, but I‘ll bust out some cardboard mockups.
The Haus boss also wants a bit of a house extension… so I am going slowly, and stroking the beard.

 

5 hours ago, Brad O said:

...  If you have a chance to hear the Treos, Quatros, and KĒNTOs together with your wife, you may find the WAF surprises you.  

She often does.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Holmz

[GdnrBob]

18 hours ago, TomicTime said:

Bedrock tablets…

Don't you mean Granite Tablets?😉

[Holmz]

Just now, GdnrBob said:

Don't you mean Granite Tablets?😉

Maybe a reference to the Flintstones…?

 

If he had mentioned a Dino instead of a 993 then we could confirm it.

[TomicTime]

Man…. i missed a smoking deal on a Dino…..before somebody discovered them… again…

No, i purposely called out Bedrock… the marketing name for Vandersteen granite bases for t he 7’s….

I think it would make a nice play on the old TAS cover….

[TomicTime]

here ya go…..