M5-HPA and Audioquest 72v DBS cables

[TomicTime]

4 hours ago, John Gallup said:

Bruce Heimberg at Stereo Unlimited in San Diego has given me 20 percent off list on AQ stuff. Others may have done better, but I feel well-treated there. The store is huge, has tons of used equipment and an amazing assortment of vinyl for sale. I'd been shopping there for years before I realized they also have a 50-seat-or-so theater for presentations.

As do I. treated very well and tge record room is like musical crack.....

[ctsooner]

I haven't been back in SD since I left in late 86.  I bought a pair of STax to go with my Sony CD player I got from Japan (while out at sea) 6 months before the US got them.  It was a great set up on the ship for that cruise.  It really was better than using a walkman with Sennheisers that I was also using at the time (I got them from the radio station I worked at for free and they were really nice).

My brother bought a full NAD system from him. I also bought a CJ pre amp and Moscode, Roberson and one other amp (I forget which one).  He had products that I hadn't been able to hear when I was in college in OK.  I met Richard there in 82 for the first time.  I got to hear the 2's with a Sota and CJ gear I believe it was.  He must have really expanded as his store had a main room and one at the end of that room and one off of that room that had the NAD gear.  I brought in many of my Navy buddies who also purchased a ton of gear from him instead of getting Infinity at Mad Jacks across the street, lol.  

I'm trying to put a reunion together for my fellow officers I served with.  Covid made us cancel last winter, so I'm hoping I can put it together this coming winter.   I"ll be heading to Bruce's to visit (would be great if Jim and other west coasters could meet up there for a day).

[ctsooner]

Guys, I just looked into it and MD does indeed carry the full line of AQ cables all the way up to Dragons (TOTL).  

[Tom Newell]

On 4/24/2021 at 9:51 AM, John Gallup said:

I'm using "Blizzard" power cables, which are the lowest-priced ones with the DBS system. The interconnects are "Water," and the speaker cables are "William Tell" bi-wire combo. My dealer allowed me a tryout of the speaker cables and I made a conscious (although not double-blind scientific) effort to compare them to the Kimber 8TCs they replaced, and could discern a real improvement. The other cables were part of the new system of M5-HPA amps, Quatros and a Rogue Audio RP-9 preamp so I didn't get to "test" them.

How do you like the Water interconnects? Considering a long run of XLR water between pre-amp and power amps.

[John Gallup]

1 hour ago, Tom Newell said:

How do you like the Water interconnects? Considering a long run of XLR water between pre-amp and power amps.

They sound great, but of course I didn't do a real test, since my old setup had a VTL integrated amp and thus didn't need interconnects between pre-amp and amp. The conventional wisdom of course, is that balanced interconnects are better over "long" distances.

[Steve Edwards]

On 4/27/2021 at 4:34 PM, ctsooner said:

I'm trying to put a reunion together for my fellow officers I served with.  Covid made us cancel last winter, so I'm hoping I can put it together this coming winter.   I"ll be heading to Bruce's to visit (would be great if Jim and other west coasters could meet up there for a day).

Count me in Peter!  I have not met Bruce yet; would be an outstanding gathering of audio fellowship. 

[nrenter]

@Tom Newellgiven you run a full Aesthetix stack, and that Aesthetix supports a true implementation of the differential balanced spec, I’d be interested if you hear a difference between something like the AudioQuest Water and a Mogami XLR run. Yes, I should be able to answer that question myself with my Ayre stack, but my 1m runs of AQ Colorado aren’t nearly as expensive as what will be required for your room. Also, my ego would make me believe the AQ would sound better. A long run with more dollars involved would be a more interesting experiment. 

[GdnrBob]

@nrenter,

FWIW,

I originally bought a 25 foot pair of XLR cables from Ralph Karsten- I think they are Mogami or something similar.

Johnny Rutan  sent me some Mackenzie XLR's  to replace them. 

To be honest, I didn't hear much difference.- Though the Mackenzie's don't have the DBS pack like the Water's- I'd still be hesitant to spend that much on XLR cables. As Ralph believes that if the equipment supports the AES 48 standard, then the cable should not make a significant difference in sound quality.

Given my experience, I am inclined to agree. -Take this with a grain of salt, as my hearing isn't the best- at least according to my audiologist.

 

Bob

[nrenter]

As both a neurotic audiophile as well as a pragmatic degreed EE (with hearing of an 18 year old, according to my audiologist), I tend to throw just enough money at a my two-channel "problems" so that both my head and my heart feel they're sufficiently addressed. We all have our cost-benefit ratios as well as our superstitions.

 

I'm reminded of a quote from one of my favorite movies (although I despise most of the "stars") Bull Durham:  “If you believe you’re playing well because you’re getting laid or because you’re not getting laid or because you wear women’s underwear, then you are. And you should know that!”

 

When it comes to XLR cables connecting components that support the AES 48 standard, I think you're better to "invest" in some Caig DeOxit than more expensive cables. But what do I know? I literally just spent $75 on a U2 "War" MFSL CD. There's a good chance I'm the idiot.

Edited May 16, 2021 by nrenter

[BKDad]

For all you guys using the fancy AQ speaker cables with the "cold welded" terminations...

I recently replaced the DBS batteries in mine.  While doing so, I figured it would be a good time to clean the terminations and otherwise check things.  Upon sliding back the plastic covers over the spade lugs, I found that some of those cold weld screws weren't exactly tight.  Who knows why they weren't tight or how long they'd been like that.  It took only a couple seconds to remedy that - I had the right tool - but I can't imagine that reasonably tight isn't better that not reasonably tight for this.  

Note: If you choose to take this on yourself, be sure that you have the right tools, and that you do the work over a table or a suitable drop cloth.  If you drop one of those screws onto your carpet or onto any large floor, good luck finding it again.

[ctsooner]

I just reached out to AQ about this and will let you all know what they come back with.  Interesting and thanks for sharing.

[GdnrBob]

@BKDad,

What tools are required? and what did you do?

Bob

[BKDad]

This video gives some insight to how the connectors work:

If you'd bought the connectors separately, instead of as part of a cable assembly, I suspect there'd be some instructions supplied.  But, I didn't, so no printed instructions for me.  You'd also get a tool for the job.  But, I didn't have that either.

The Philips head screws that attach the red and black plastic covers to the spade lugs came off just fine with a #00 Philips screwdriver.

You need a 1.5 mm Allen wrench to tighten the screws that clamp down on the wires.

I used Wiha tools for both.  Just hand tightened them to what seemed to be reasonable.  No stripped screws or broken tools.  No torque screwdriver required.  I'd thought about that, but decided that I wouldn't know the correct torque value to use anyway.  

Full disclosure - I also shortened the cables myself at the same time.  I had 8 foot long cables for each side because I wasn't sure how long I'd need when we first bought the speakers, because of placement and all that.  These speakers haven't moved more than a couple inches since the initial set up for tweaking, so I think they're good where they are.  Took two feet off each side - no sense in having a wide hairpin of bulky excess speaker cable behind the works.  That's when and how I discovered the not completely tight connections on just a couple of the screws.  

(BTW - the work under the hood was very well done by the AQ technicians who originally terminated the cables.)

This is probably nothing to even worry about.  But, since a lot of audio enthusiasts are, umm, detail oriented, I thought I'd mention it.  Just to keep you guys awake at night.  The wires weren't hanging out or anything like that - the screws just weren't uniformly snug to what I'd consider tight.  Maybe they just loosen up over time due to cold flow of the wire and vibration.  Maybe it's an insidious plot by AudioQuest to get customers to upgrade to ever more expensive cables after a couple years.  Who knows?  

[John Gallup]

14 hours ago, BKDad said:

Full disclosure - I also shortened the cables myself at the same time.  I had 8 foot long cables for each side because I wasn't sure how long I'd need when we first bought the speakers, because of placement and all that.  These speakers haven't moved more than a couple inches since the initial set up for tweaking, so I think they're good where they are.  Took two feet off each side - no sense in having a wide hairpin of bulky excess speaker cable behind the works.

Hmmm...I got a set of AQ Firebird speaker cables  used at a good price, and would like to shorten them a foot or two myself. I'm guessing this may not be a do-it-yourself procedure, though.

 

 

[BKDad]

I had no problem.  It took the right tools, the right supplies, and took some time.

But, I spoke with the AQ guys before doing it myself.  They were encouraging.  But, they also were very willing to do the work themselves.  They obviously have the tools and the skills. 

Looking at that photograph, if you shorten the cables by two feet, there wouldn't be much left.  Perhaps AQ might suggest a better solution for your installation.  Dunno.

[GdnrBob]

I, too, had encouragement from AQ when I needed my cables reterminated. It seems there is only the phillips screw and the allen head screw to deal with.

As Scotty from Star Trek said, 'if you want to do the job right, use the right tool'.

B

[ctsooner]

That was a really good video by AQ.  I have sent back a Hurricane to change it to a 20amp termination.  I personally don't want anyone by AQ to re-terminate my cables and cords.  That way if I even want to sell and upgrade (99% chance that happens someday) I can say that it was done by AQ.  That's just me.  Just happy you guys are loving your set ups. That's all that matters.

[nrenter]

I agree with @ctsooner on this one. When I had my 2-pair of single terminated speaker cables combined into a shotgun bi-wired set, I sent them back to AQ. It was relatively quick, easy and cost effective. Plus, as mentioned, I have proof the work was done by AQ.

[Bill]

OK I'll jump in.  I'm an engineer and I think Gene is doing good work.  He references peer reviewed research articles and provides measurements that contradict AQs claims.  There's nothing simplistic about it, or deceptive about it.  You can do your own blind testing with a friend.  Lamp cord is cheap.  Give it a try. 

[ctsooner]

Bill, I've been there adn done that.  Ask anyone who knows me, I'm not wealthy and I'm cheap.  I have done a ton of A/B with cables and cords.  I've had most companies in the house and yes, I even ran a bi wire run of lamp cord.  I wish Garth was here as he does have measurements etc...  I'm not an engineer, but I also know that many things are not measured or can't be measured.  Bottom line is that many folks dont' believe in upgrading cables and cords adn that's fine.  I hope they enjoy their music as that's what it's all about.

[BKDad]

31 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

 but I also know that many things are not measured or can't be measured

^^  My added emphasis.

This, in my mind, is the real nut.  I'd also add that many things are not analyzed, either. 

Maybe some people have an agenda with this approach.  Maybe it's not convenient.  Maybe it's not comfortable.  But, not examining every possibility before asserting a result certainly is not scientific.  

It's all too easy to oversimplify something and proclaim victory.  And to be entirely fair, probably most people don't really care about the little details that certain audio enthusiasts fret, or even obsess, over.  So, for them, it's perfectly fair to just say that "This doesn't matter to me.  I don't even get why you would care."  That is not really the same as "This doesn't exist", which is what a lot of people insist.

In his interview with the Philadelphia Area Audio Group Richard Vandersteen said something that I found really pretty profound about 20 or so minutes in.  I'll mess it up if I claim to quote him, but he said something along the lines of:  

Everybody hears differently.  Some people are very analytical and really need to hear certain sonic details to become engaged.  Others have an ability to fill in the sonic gaps, so they don't need as much accuracy.  

That pretty much sums it up for me.  I'd add that a lot of people plain don't care, too.

One of the things that I find interesting about audio is how many little things matter far more, at least for me, than they would initially appear to on the surface.  Usually, with some digging, you can explain it.  Other things that you might expect to be a solution often aren't or inject other problems.  Once again, with some additional digging you can usually explain that, too.  It can be maddening, but it adds a certain challenge to the hobby.

So, along that vein...

A friend of mine recently changed the DBS packs in his five plus year old AudioQuest cables to the latest version.  Level X, I think they're called.  They are apparently very similar to the Carbon version that some of the AQ cables have been supplied with for the past couple years.  He told me that my life wouldn't be complete unless I made my cables "X-Rated", so I bought a pair for the Castle Rock speaker cables.  

I am completely surprised by the changes the new DBS packs brought.  Full disclosure - In the last month I'd replaced the battery packs in the original DBS packs as supplied with the Castle Rock speaker cables, so that should not be a variable.  I'll also add that I actually didn't want the new DBS packs to be any different or better.  They aren't the price of Jenga blocks, so changing DBS packs is not a casual purchase, at least for me.  (Especially since we have two sets of interconnects with the older DBS packs.)  But, here we are.

For what it's worth, my friend's cables are all about five or so years old and they all were pre-Carbon.  I'm not sure when the changeover took place.  I guess Castle Rock cables never had the newer DBS packs, Carbon or not.  Our interconnects are still being made and sold, but recent versions have the better Carbon DBS packs while ours still have the older version.  The newer packs have a shinier and harder external finish and use smaller sized batteries of the same voltage, so the overall pack size is smaller, too - just in case you own these cables and want to check which version you have.

 

[John Gallup]

39 minutes ago, BKDad said:

In his interview with the Philadelphia Area Audio Group Richard Vandersteen said something that I found really pretty profound about 20 or so minutes in.  I'll mess it up if I claim to quote him, but he said something along the lines of:  

Everybody hears differently.  Some people are very analytical and really need to hear certain sonic details to become engaged.  Others have an ability to fill in the sonic gaps, so they don't need as much accuracy.  

This may be why so many musicians we read about have little interest in high-end audio systems.

[TomicTime]

BKDad - great post, one reason why i am enjoying the Vandy forum so much….people, good people helping others get better sound…

While my amps have built in DBS, the AQ cables shipped w newer X batt packs, so i will be changing out the old 72 v pack on my AQ Eagle Eye SPDIF cable from Server to DAC….

[GdnrBob]

@TomicTime, 

I noticed how your old battery pack seems to have that weird degraded plastic thing going on.

I have a number of cables that look like yours. I never used any cleaner or substance on them, but they seem to exhibit the same degradation. Perhaps these new 'X' models fix that issue, as well as having a smaller footprint. Though I can't understand why they would sound differently if they employ the same voltage.

B

[TomicTime]

2 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

@TomicTime, 

Hi Bob…..hard to know…that particular DBS pack lives on a finished Stickley shelf….i am not impressed with whatever finish they use…it seems soft…like not fully cured - suspect it and the DBS plastic reacted…

2 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

I noticed how your old battery pack seems to have that weird degraded plastic thing going on.

I have a number of cables that look like yours. I never used any cleaner or substance on them, but they seem to exhibit the same degradation. Perhaps these new 'X' models fix that issue, as well as having a smaller footprint. Though I can't understand why they would sound differently if they employ the same voltage.

B