Toe-in?

[VFan]

First post here, glad to have found a place where V speakers are well appreciated.  Wonder how much toe-in you have on your Vandersteens.  I found that in my set-up, I prefer a very minimal amount of toe-in, much less than (I believe?) what is suggested in manual.  What has been your experience?

[DrumTemp]

Same here. I use very little toe-in, but get a very good/well defined center image with the toe-in I use. Also, I might add, the distance between my speakers is equal to the distance from my listening chair.

[VFan]

7 hours ago, DrumTemp said:

Same here. I use very little toe-in, but get a very good/well defined center image with the toe-in I use. Also, I might add, the distance between my speakers is equal to the distance from my listening chair.

Good to hear another user with similar experience.  I do not have the system set up in equilateral triangle though, but I find that I prefer the speakers closer together than what I have seen in show photos 😅

[Steve Edwards]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:01 PM, VFan said:

First post here, glad to have found a place where V speakers are well appreciated.  Wonder how much toe-in you have on your Vandersteens.  I found that in my set-up, I prefer a very minimal amount of toe-in, much less than (I believe?) what is suggested in manual.  What has been your experience?

This is a good place for us Vandy devotees!  In my room, I have not observed significant changes in imaging with toe-in.  But, I have mine at a 2" toe-in; that being the distance between a string, tautly taped to the outer front corners, and the inner corner of each speaker.  My room is modest in size, so I have mine pretty close to the side walls, albeit in an equilateral triangle. With the Quatros' side firing subs, I think the toe-in lessens the reaction with those walls, resulting in tighter bass.

[C-Pop]

I'm am running a vintage pair of 2c's, mint condition. I have (2) questions:

1) my speakers are approximately 18' with minimal toe-in. I've read that moving them closer together may improve soundstage. If so, what is a good measurement for them?

2) I started out pushing my V's with a freshly recapped Sansui AU417 (65wpc) in a verticle bi-amp config. Original owners manual states anything from 40-120wpc would be fine for these speakers, also recommending verticle bi-amping. However, they seemed to be thirsty for a bit more power, lacking in "fullness". I recently ordered a Rotel RB1070 (100wpc) power amp along with matching preamp to replace the Sansui. My question is about the additional power. Would this Rotel setup be a better match with my 2c's in that they are more powerful as well as seperates? Is ther a "sweet spot" power rating that has been detrrmined for these mid 80s model speakers??

TIA for all responses. 

Cecil

[Steve Edwards]

1)  All rooms are different, but in MOST cases, your 2C's will sound best when the distance between the tweeters equals the distance from each tweeter to your listening position

2)  An amp's power rating is significant, but it is not the only criteria to judge any amplifier.  Generally, the more power you have, the greater headroom; but, the only true test is in the listening

Play on

[ctsooner]

As far as amps go, the test for headroom is also does it continue to double as you go to 4 and 2 ohms.  The reason I just got Richards HP5's is because it's made for the speaker.  It's also should sound great using an analog volume control direct from my server/DAC (close wiht the owner who makes it).  Just testing various volume controls to see which one sounds best. 

 

AS for amp choices for the 2- Treo's, I'd recommend auditioning the Belles gear.

[Daverz]

For years I always pointed my cloth Quatros straight ahead.  Just recently I tried a moderate amount of toe-in, and it was an improvement to the center image stability.

I don't have enough continuous straight wall behind the speakers to use for adjusting toe-in consistently.  So I set up a laser level on a tripod and shine a line along the top of the speakers for a reference.  I then adjust the laser line so it crosses the outer back corners of the top plates and then adjust toe-in so  the line intersects the inside of the top plate about 1.75 inches from the back.  I use a bit of sticky putty to mark that point.  The toe-in angle comes out to about 17 degrees.

[bkeske]

Interesting that this thread was revived. Just this past weekend I re-looked at my toe-in on my 2CE Sigs. For the past few months, I had set-up my Sig’s with a decent amount of toe-in, but after recently getting a new phono pre, decided to play around with the toe-in and placement again…..in and out….in and out. Finally, I settled for very little toe-in (as I used to have it once before). Maybe 5 degrees. Probably more like 15 prior.

I listen to a lot of classical, and this really ‘opened up’ the stage, a lot, and also allowed for much more ‘air’ around the instruments. It also created a more seamless orchestral soundstage overall. All of a sudden the sound in my room was wide and full, without sacrificing a solid center.

Its funny how we convince ourselves one way is better, than fiddling, find another better. Now, it could also have to do with my new phono pre as well. But after taking out most the toe-in, I sat back and said to myself, ‘what was I thinking?’.

Im sure I’ll change it again someday 😉

[ctsooner]

This thread will always come and go since we'll have new members joining.  I spoke with Richard about set up last week.  The one thing he mentioned is to keep in mind that the more toe in, the less you deal with the side wall and it's reflections.  As he said, play with it to find that balance in your room to give you the size and fill that you want and then you can 'dial out' some of the wall interaction if you desire.  It will be different for us all, but very simple.  

[Bill]

I've found that too much toe in can concentrate and compress the image a bit much.  I guess finding the sweet spot between image compression and wall reflections is the key.

[ctsooner]

Agreed. Each room is different. There is no absolute placement. So subjective ,  but setting up the way RV describes makes the most sense. Then get the room acoustics correct and go from there with slight adjustments and most will be very happy

[Steve Edwards]

For quite some time, I've been under the assumption that it is important to match the degree of toe-in.  In this forum, I've previously shared the string method John Rutan taught me.  But, as we all know, each room is different.  Since my left speaker is closer to the side wall than my right, I'm thinking about increasing the left a smidge and see if I hear any improvement.

If I do, I hope the analytical part of my brain will not struggle too much with the visual irregularity    

[GdnrBob]

I do the same in my set up, as I listen off center.

B

[GdnrBob]

And, oddly enough,  the hearing in my left ear is somewhat diminished especially in the higher frequencies.

So, having my seat closer to the left speaker actually minimizes my need to adjust the balance to the point of having completely off balance.

Now, my office, on the other hand is the opposite. But, then it is only me listening😊.

B

[Steve Edwards]

Interesting Bob.  I'm the opposite; I hear a little better in my left ear.

The middle cushion of my couch is dead center to the speakers.  That is where the image is best.  Even moving to the left or right cushion presents a noticeable difference.  I can still enjoy the sound, even in a little chair I have on the left side of the couch, about even with the left speaker, but as RV has said (and I'm paraphrasing), a reasonable position is like a good meal, but on-axis is like desert.  

In addition to playing a little more with toe-in, I still need to check for the recommended 8 inches above ear height on the tilt.

[GdnrBob]

Call me a heretic, but I don't like to be held in a single position when I listen to music. I like to not only sit, but also move around the room. Few speakers allow this flexibility (IMHO). 

Perhaps that is why I also like Magnepan.  Though I might not get the full 3D image, I still get a full immersive sound. That is why I love my Vandy's.

B

[TomicTime]

Bob for less critical listening try removing the grills from Treo. Less resolution in the sweetspot but more splash.  For those Vandy models w rear firing tweeters, a chance to use them ! 

[VFan]

In my set up, after a very lengthy (months) of fine tuning, the left speaker is slightly toe out while the right speaker slightly toe in.  Distance from listening seat to R is also shorter than that to L.

[Bill]

I tend to agree with RVs advice on this in a different thread.  I think his advice was to use the balance.  I think he said that different Toe-ins can affect the time alignment.  (I think)

[Boom Boom]

On 9/15/2020 at 7:39 AM, C-Pop said:

I'm am running a vintage pair of 2c's, mint condition. I have (2) questions:

1) my speakers are approximately 18' with minimal toe-in. I've read that moving them closer together may improve soundstage. If so, what is a good measurement for them?

2) I started out pushing my V's with a freshly recapped Sansui AU417 (65wpc) in a verticle bi-amp config. Original owners manual states anything from 40-120wpc would be fine for these speakers, also recommending verticle bi-amping. However, they seemed to be thirsty for a bit more power, lacking in "fullness". I recently ordered a Rotel RB1070 (100wpc) power amp along with matching preamp to replace the Sansui. My question is about the additional power. Would this Rotel setup be a better match with my 2c's in that they are more powerful as well as seperates? Is ther a "sweet spot" power rating that has been detrrmined for these mid 80s model speakers??

TIA for all responses. 

Cecil

Hi Cecil

I owned 2Cs until a couple of weeks ago. I hope you're enjoying yours. Just had my 2Ce Signature III's delivered today.

I tried toeing them in and decided they sounded best not toed in. I used a leveling bubble to adjust the spikes on my Vanderstands and made sure they were level.  I kept them at least 2' from the back wall and 2' away from the side wall. I used a tape measure to make sure they weren't toed. I used them bi-cabled or bi-wired. Before I let them go, I set the output level to the settings a reviewer on Stereophile ended up with. +1 Db on the tweeters and -1 Db on the midrange. He said this improved the sound on piano recordings. For me it was male opera recordings that I used.

2C's like quality power and are sensitive to electronics in the treble. Your Rotel should work better than the Sansui. The best sounding small amp I've heard on the 2C's was a Robertson 40/10. It had great drive, punch and control of the drivers. It was a current stable design rated at 40 WPC at 8 ohms. This was in a medium size listening room. I ran mine with a 120 WPC Acoustat TNT 120 for many years. I ran with a PS Audio IVH preamp in passive mode. I was happy for years with this setup. I improved the imaging by placing vibrapods under the amp and pre and ran them in my bedroom system with my 1Cs. For my living room, I replaced these with a Classe 47.5 Mk II preamp and a Simaudio Moon W5 amp in the early 2000's. The Moon W5 is current stable and rated at 350 WPC at 8 ohms. The difference in sound for the power amp (after I figured out power conditioning, power cords and upgrading cables) was the quality of the sound. The Moon W5 just opened up and filled the soundstage with lots of details that I hadn't heard before from the 2C's. I don't think it was the increase in power as much as it was the higher quality of the amp design. The Acoustat had proprietary circuitry to shunt the feedback coming from the speakers to the amp. They called it the Trans Nova Twin (TNT) design. The Moon W5 is a differentially balanced zero feedback design. It reminded me of the Ayre amp I was considering at the time.

I believe the Rotel is class D. I had a friend who used a Rotel receiver who used it with a pair of Bower & Wilkins 600 series towers with nautilus style tweeters. This combo produced opera and classical symphonies quite well. He didn't biwire them. I helped him upgrade the stock cables to entry level Transparent interconnects and speaker cables and the sound improved. From what I've read, the better class D amps do a good job of reducing noise from the power supplies. The power supplies operate, I think, at a higher AC voltage than "analogue" power supplies. They tend to be noisy.

My Linn Majik 2100 that I run with my Vandersteen 1C's uses a switch mode power supply and is Class D. Linn sound is intricate and articulate. With the Chakra power supply upgrade it is rated around 120 WPC at 4 Ohms (I'm guessing 60 WPC at 8 Ohms). The sound quality is superb. Again, I think it has to do with the quality of the design and the manufacture. When I auditioned my 1C's at Advanced Audio, they told me the Rega Brio integrated amp should be similar to my PS Audio/Acoustat combo. It took maybe 15 minutes for me to ask them to change the amp. They hooked up the Linn mini system and the sound quality was much more what I was accustomed to. I explained this to my salesman at Definitive Audio when I auditioned the 2Ce Signature III's. We used Simaudio Moon electronics and Transparent cabling for the demo. He said: If you compared the Linn to the Rega, the Rega would sound S-L-O-W. I never described what happened that accurately but he hit the nail on the head!

I'm hoping if you're spending what you can afford on an amp, you listen to it on the speakers you own.

[Richard Vandersteen]

On 6/17/2021 at 4:49 PM, TomicTime said:

Bob for less critical listening try removing the grills from Treo. Less resolution in the sweetspot but more splash.  For those Vandy models w rear firing tweeters, a chance to use them ! 

Hi Bob, try removing the grills on the TREO as an experiment if you like but know it causes huge notches in the frequency response (about -6 to 10 Db)  curve at the crossover points (800Hz and 4.5K).  I think you will notice the grills on will be a better musical experience even if it is not as good when at the proper listening position.

 

RV

[TomicTime]

thankfully the expert is back from vacation and i can go back to drinking and listening as opposed to giving bad acoustical advice !,,,,,

 

[GdnrBob]

@Richard Vandersteen,

I am a bit perplexed.

I believed, perhaps unwisely, that grill wouldn't affect sound response- or shouldn't.

So, my question is whether the material used for your speakers is one that is required to achieve proper sound distribution? 

If it is part of the 'secret sauce', then I will enquire no further.

BUT..

if a speaker is time and phase aligned, wouldn't the grill fabrics affect that? Especially if it has an affect on frequency response?

Not to be a b****h,

Bob

[TomicTime]

what does the Treo manual say ?