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PaulB

PaulB's 2ce sig and 2wq system

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Hi all,

Here is my system in an 11 x 16 room with Pass Labs electronics. Finding fairly extreme toe-in is what works best for my listening position. Bass is perfect; midrange is finicky.  

Would love to see more setups here. 

Best wishes,

Paul

681BD996-7FD1-4819-ADD0-A834420ADBB5_1_105_c.jpeg

64FA5D58-AB5C-4881-9596-CE56D3BCF967_1_105_c.jpeg

81A1770C-F31F-4AFF-A6B3-829FF2323204_1_105_c.jpeg

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Hello and welcome Paul, thank you for jumping on board.  I started my Vandersteen journey with 2C's.  I'm on my third pair of Richard's fine work; a devoted fan for sure.

While I can't see your listening chair, it appears that it is a little farther from your 2's than the distance from the middle to the middle of each.  Have you tried reaching an equilateral triangle?

Also, have you been able to determine if your toe-in is identical?  I'm no expert, but have a fair amount of experience with setting up Vandy's.  Small adjustments can make large improvements.  If appropriate, I would  be glad to share the toe-in measuring method that John Rutan of Audio Connection taught me.

Play on

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It's interesting to see how close your speakers are (and I thought that my 7 feet of separation wasn't enough for my 2CEs).  Guess you are certainly packing a lot of woofer square footage with the sub and the speakers in that room 🙂

 

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On 11/21/2020 at 4:36 PM, PaulB said:

Hi all,

Here is my system in an 11 x 16 room with Pass Labs electronics. Finding fairly extreme toe-in is what works best for my listening position. Bass is perfect; midrange is finicky.  

Would love to see more setups here. 

Best wishes,

Paul

681BD996-7FD1-4819-ADD0-A834420ADBB5_1_105_c.jpeg

64FA5D58-AB5C-4881-9596-CE56D3BCF967_1_105_c.jpeg

81A1770C-F31F-4AFF-A6B3-829FF2323204_1_105_c.jpeg

Welcome Paul that’s a mighty fine system you have there,

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On 11/23/2020 at 9:52 AM, Steve Edwards said:

Hello and welcome Paul, thank you for jumping on board.  I started my Vandersteen journey with 2C's.  I'm on my third pair of Richard's fine work; a devoted fan for sure.

While I can't see your listening chair, it appears that it is a little farther from your 2's than the distance from the middle to the middle of each.  Have you tried reaching an equilateral triangle?

Also, have you been able to determine if your toe-in is identical?  I'm no expert, but have a fair amount of experience with setting up Vandy's.  Small adjustments can make large improvements.  If appropriate, I would  be glad to share the toe-in measuring method that John Rutan of Audio Connection taught me.

Play on

Steve,

Please do share the measurement method you learned.

 

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It's quite simple.  Get a piece of thick string or cord.  With a non-residue-leaving tape, secure one end to the outside front corner of the left speaker.  Pull the cord over to the right speaker, and with as much tension as possible without tipping the speaker over, tape the other end to the outside front corner of the right speaker.  Measure the distance between the cord and the inside front corner of the left speaker.  Yours look to me to be around 2 1/2" to 3".   Match those measurements on both sides and you have identical toe-in.

P.S.   play around with your toe-in; it can have a noticeable impact on imaging.  

Play on

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Hi all, 

Sorry for not responding sooner. 

 

Steve, thank you for sharing your precise toe-in technique. Will try it! 

 

stratocaster, thanks! The bass is Vandersteen bass, not overpowering. At one point, I had 2 2wqs in there, but the bass was not fuller, and was somehow worse.  For me, it's proved more important to have the speakers away from boundaries than from each other. 

I have tried all manner of placement and toe-in, in 1/2-inch increments. It's always gravitated back to this setup. Equilateral and nearfield haven't worked.

I first saw the extreme toe-in technique in the Mozart museum in Salzburg. They have a pair of Franco Serblin bespoke monitors bolted to the floor in this configuration. 3D stereo image. I had read of others trying this technique in small rooms with success. So, my speakers are a little less than  7' apart on center. I'm about 9' back with absorbers behind me, and an open door to a small bathroom behind that, with Owens Corning 703 damping the bathroom.  (I just broke my tape measure, so I'll redo the measurements and report back when I pick a new one up) The speakers are aimed at a point about 18" in front of my face! 

I would probably do it differently in any other room.  It's a weird space. 

When I get the next room over renoed with damping and diffusion built in, at about 14' x 23', I'll move the system over and start all over again, and perhaps upgrade to 2ce IIIs or Treo CTs. I'll give Magnepan 1.7s and Harbeth  a listen too. So glad to hear that Richard put the CT midrange in the IIIs. Anyone  move to those from the 2ces sigs or the 2ce IIs yet?  Please let me know how you find them. 

Huang, thank you! I love the room itself. It's so cozy. Wood panels, scotch, low lighting, lps. But I think the power of the amp and speakers can overpower the space, and I seldom listen above 75 db at the listening position.  Also really enjoying classical these days, especially chamber music,  and folk and ambient.  Rock is ok  with these speakers, but  they really do justice to acoustic instruments. My hearing is starting to decline, so I have maybe ten years of good hearing left, and want to make the most of it. 

Happy listening, and thank you for your feedback! 

 

Paul.

 

 

 

 

 

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Guys the new 2's done have carbon fiber mods.  It's the woven fiber that's in the speakers up to the Quatro CT's.  It's a glorious speaker though.  The new 2's are really a totally different speaker and are amazing when used with NAD integrated or when using an Aesthetix Mima's integrated with internal DAC and Phono boards.  Amazing value as all of his products are.

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21 hours ago, Steve Edwards said:

It's quite simple.  Get a piece of thick string or cord.  With a non-residue-leaving tape, secure one end to the outside front corner of the left speaker.  Pull the cord over to the right speaker, and with as much tension as possible without tipping the speaker over, tape the other end to the outside front corner of the right speaker.  Measure the distance between the cord and the inside front corner of the left speaker.  Yours look to me to be around 2 1/2" to 3".   Match those measurements on both sides and you have identical toe-in.

P.S.   play around with your toe-in; it can have a noticeable impact on imaging.  

Play on

Thanks Steve

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Update with accurate measurement: speakers are 4'9" apart on center, 7'6" from each speaker to the listening position, with 6" of toe-in, identical using Steve Edwards' recommended measuring technique.

Now I'm going to bring up my chair so that ears are 4'9" from the base of an equilateral triangle to see what I hear. May try getting speakers further apart, but I've had bad luck in the past. 

 

Have a good weekend! 

 

Paul

 

 

 

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Too bad you can't get them close to the corners.  My Quatro's are inches from the sides walls and back wall.  Johnny Rutan set them up and they sound great.

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Generally speaking Paul, most recommended speaker placement is get them as wide as possible.  I can't tell what that is on the floor next to your left speaker, but it appears you could spread them out a pretty good amount.  Then, bringing your chair in would get you closer to the equilateral triangle.  

In a video at John Rutans' Audio Connection, Richard stated that he prefers being a little farther back than an equilateral triangle, so your sweet spot may be the same.  You've got some room to work with.  I think you may discover some significant improvement after some experimentation.  

Play on

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I'm with Steve.  I'd try to do that.  I'd also take the side treatments down and dial the speaker in first.  Then you can dial in the treatments to the new position of the speakers.  

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At the risk of turning this into a crowd-sourced placement exercise, I loved the speakers and chair into a 7' equilateral. This photo is from just behind the point of that triangle. Toe-in is 6" using the method described above. 

The sound perfectly at the apex of the triangle was weird. It sounded like two speakers way over to each side, like everything turned into a hard-panned stereo Beatles mix.  Moving a bit back from the triangle helped, but I'm still evaluating. The sub helps fill in the bass in the  center that I think might be lost in this config. 

 

I will say that I appreciate the extra room this setup affords. Less cramped!

 

I'll keep experimenting and listening, but thank you all for the advice! 

 

Paul

2ce sig equilateral placement.jpg

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Paul, that even "looks" more listenable.  The "hard panned stereo mix" you heard may very well be to the large degree of toe-in you have.  I believe you're spreading them out will be a significant improvement.  Depending on how much time you have / can spare, you might try facing them straight out, no toe-in.  Then, depending on what you're hearing, toe them in in small increments, maybe 3/4" to 1" at a time.  

When doing this type of exercise, I'm listening for not only width in the soundstage, but also depth.  On most recordings, there will be multiple instruments in the left, center or right quadrant, but one will sound deeper or spread apart a tad more.  For me, that's what creates that "in the studio with the musicians" sensation, producing those goose bumps.

My equilateral triangle is 8.75' with a toe-in of 1".   Every room is different, but with some experimentation, you'll find a sweet spot that fully engages you.  

Play on

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Johnny Rutan set mine up and has them right in the corner, near the back wall with a tad of toe in. I keep wanting to move them back out where my Treo’s sounded best, but have resisted that traditional set up. I’m hoping to FINALLY be up and running in the next few days.  
 

this should be a great thread for set ups going forward. 

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Though it was clear across the country, via video, John (Gandalf) Rutan also helped me with my set up.  This arrangement has provided the best sound, imaging and resolution I have heard in my room.  The experimentation can take some time, but the eventual results are so worth it.  

Studio V.jpg

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Nice looking set up Steve.  Like you, he has mine on the side walls too.  It does look best at they are out of the way.

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I have found the minimal investment in Bosch or Leica laser to be invaluable in precision setup...The Bosch is $30, the Leica Disto II is $50 ish...

Jim

 

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