Do newer Treo/Quatro trump original Model 5s?

[John Gallup]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:29 PM, DogsPart2 said:

I am looking at new speakers and the Treo CT has made the short list (along with offerings by Graham, Spendor and Devore)

Three years ago I upgraded from Treos (driven by a VTL integrated amp) to Quatros driven by the M5-HPA amps, and have to say the bass response has made this (rather expensive) upgrade worthwhile for me. My dealer adjusted the equalizers on the Quatros twice, and after an audition the head of our San Diego Music and Audio Guild said my system was one of the best he'd heard in a small (15 x 12.5 ft) room.

I realize this isn't quite what you asked, but I feel like the subwoofers integrated with the Quatros really take things to a new level. If you already have subwoofer(s), this may not be relevant, although a friend with subs who's heard my system says you won't get the seamless integration of low frequency music with separate subs.

[stebaht]

I’ve gone from 1s to 2s to the 5a’s - also still have 1s. The bass of the 5a’s is incredible. That’s all have to say. 

[Jim Heckman]

This response is way past time that anyone is paying attention to this topic, but anyway...  As for the appearance of the Model Seven Mk IIs, I've always thought they are beautiful. 

Here's a tip.  If you're trying to decide a color for any of the speakers, go to your local store that provides paint to the auto body shops in your community (they'll have a million colors).  Ask them if you can look through their paint chips, and then if you can briefly take home the few you want to consider.  Take them home and look at them in the space you'll place the speakers.  I did this and it worked perfectly, giving me just what I wanted for a perfect fit in my room and my taste.  (A bit later I took them a pizza gift certificate as a thank you.)

I will be banished to a polar penal colony for this comment.  Having owned 3A Sigs and 5A Carbons, I preferred the 3s.  That speaker is so seductively melodious that it permanently owns real estate in my heart.  Yes, as one reviewer put it, it does trade off some midrange clarity for its gorgeous musicality, but for me that's a trade readily made.  I prefer only my Sevens above it.  Adding the Sub Nine subwoofers made a beautiful improvement in the Sevens' sound.

And last (this is the penal colony part), I never liked the 5A Carbons and have never understood their high reputation (while never taking issue with anyone who does like them).  To me, the speaker is a dud, not at the level one would expect from Vandersteens.

Jim Heckman

[Jim Heckman]

I am getting emails from the Forum saying there have been responses to my post above, but I click the "Go to this post" box which takes me to the topic, but any responses to the post are not visible there, and I can't figure out how to find them.  I am signed in.

[BKDad]

FWIW, I don't see any written responses, either.   But, I do  see "likes" from JollyRovingTar and John Gallup. 

 

[Jim Heckman]

Good.  So it's not operator error.  Actually I didn't understand the likes so I appreciate your pointing that out--they were obviously the replies.  Thx.

[TomicTime]

The 5a carbon was imo a very honest attempt to bridge w wide gulf between the Quattro and the 7… essentially a 4x price gap. Wizard of Hanford ( my respectful term )  had a lot more $ to spend on a very inert “ stealth carbon wrapped constrained layer cabinet AND higher grade components in the crossovers, as well as the VERY pistonic carbon drivers. The 5a carbon mdf head and lower cabinet are not superior to the 7 stealth cabinet and obscure some of tge driver purity.

Re liking the 3a…. i owned a pair for 9 years… given the right amp… a wildly underated speaker… probably still today easily outclass $30 k offerings from other manufacturers…. 

[TomicTime]

obviously that gap now ably filled by award winning Kento

[Jim Heckman]

Thanks for the informative explanation, TomicTime.  It's always good to talk to a more knowledgeable person.  imo there had to be some reason for what I considered a product that fell short of Vandersteen standards.

Also a pleasure to hear your view of the 3s.  I have to wonder how many people feel like you and I do about them.  I've long felt that the used 3A Sigs you sometimes see are fantastic bargains.  Pair them with Vandy subs (back then I was using 2wqs), hopefully used, and you have a system that will sound absolutely beautiful at an astounding value.  The only reason I replaced mine (with the 5s) was power handling capability.  I was listening to big choral music loud and they couldn't handle the power.  I'm sure this has been addressed in the decades since I owned them.  They must sound even better now.

[TomicTime]

i’m not more knowledgeable, just very high milage….

[Jim Heckman]

Lucky for you!

[Richard Vandersteen]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:21 PM, Jim Heckman said:

This response is way past time that anyone is paying attention to this topic, but anyway...  As for the appearance of the Model Seven Mk IIs, I've always thought they are beautiful. 

Here's a tip.  If you're trying to decide a color for any of the speakers, go to your local store that provides paint to the auto body shops in your community (they'll have a million colors).  Ask them if you can look through their paint chips, and then if you can briefly take home the few you want to consider.  Take them home and look at them in the space you'll place the speakers.  I did this and it worked perfectly, giving me just what I wanted for a perfect fit in my room and my taste.  (A bit later I took them a pizza gift certificate as a thank you.)

I will be banished to a polar penal colony for this comment.  Having owned 3A Sigs and 5A Carbons, I preferred the 3s.  That speaker is so seductively melodious that it permanently owns real estate in my heart.  Yes, as one reviewer put it, it does trade off some midrange clarity for its gorgeous musicality, but for me that's a trade readily made.  I prefer only my Sevens above it.  Adding the Sub Nine subwoofers made a beautiful improvement in the Sevens' sound.

And last (this is the penal colony part), I never liked the 5A Carbons and have never understood their high reputation (while never taking issue with anyone who does like them).  To me, the speaker is a dud, not at the level one would expect from Vandersteens.

Jim Heckman

Calling the 5A Carbon a "dud" is evidence of how important set up is the higher resolution the speaker becomes or for that matter the system.  Many would be offended by this characterization because they know better and I stand behind what went into this speaker.  RV

[Jim Heckman]

I hoped in the way I wrote the post to minimize anyone taking offense, since it contained a clear acknowledgement that my view is a small minority.  Additionally I would have hoped you noted  my long and expensive purchase history with Vandersteen and my effusive praise for other Vandersteen speakers that I have had and now have, including my current Model Sevens MkII with Sub Nines.  I have nothing but respect for your integrity and brilliance and have said so many times in private conversations and messages.  This also might have been apparent in the post.  In fact I had a terrible time with setup when professional setup was delayed for over a year.  All of that being said, I respected this forum enough to speak honestly (and respectfully) rather than think only infallible dogma is permitted (although the quality of Vandersteen speakers is as close to infallible dogma as you're gonna get in this world).

[TomicTime]

one good thing  to keep in mind is the spirit of absolutely continuous improvement that drives team Vandersteen…. 

 

[Jim Heckman]

One of the many gratifying characteristics of this company

[GdnrBob]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:40 PM, TomicTime said:

one good thing  to keep in mind is the spirit of absolutely continuous improvement that drives team Vandersteen

And, that you can improve upon whatever speaker you chose by adding a subwoofer(esp. a Vandy sub) to compliment the bass, which brings you closer to the next model up.

I don't know of any other speaker company that allows such an easy path for upgrading. 

I am also an Audiogon member, and have espoused the virtues of the Vandy method. Unfortunately, many disregard my opinion due to either not wanting to spend money on the external crossover, or don't believe in the simplicity of this way of integrating lower frequencies.

I think Julie Child said it best-

You can do it any way you want, but, you'll be sorry.

Bob

[Richard Vandersteen]

16 hours ago, GdnrBob said:

And, that you can improve upon whatever speaker you chose by adding a subwoofer(esp. a Vandy sub) to compliment the bass, which brings you closer to the next model up.

I don't know of any other speaker company that allows such an easy path for upgrading. 

I am also an Audiogon member, and have espoused the virtues of the Vandy method. Unfortunately, many disregard my opinion due to either not wanting to spend money on the external crossover, or don't believe in the simplicity of this way of integrating lower frequencies.

I think Julie Child said it best-

You can do it any way you want, but, you'll be sorry.

Bob

You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make him.........................!  Some just have time to muse and do it on their own anyway.  RV

[Jim Heckman]

O yeh, I'm a big fan of Vandy subs.

[Boom Boom]

5 hours ago, Jim Heckman said:

O yeh, I'm a big fan of Vandy subs.

If I only I had the space for one.

[Jim Heckman]

Yeh, I had the same issue, had to rearrange my living room seating to accommodate them.

[Holmz]

7 hours ago, Richard Vandersteen said:

You can lead a Horse to water, but you can't make him.........................!  Some just have time to muse and do it on their own anyway.  RV

Sometimes the longer route is taken, but many end up in the right place in the end.

AKA: All roads lead to Rome.

[ctsooner]

All signs lead to 7 XTRM’s and a Sub 9. I may add a sub to my Quatro. That small upgrade is huge. 

[BKDad]

5 minutes ago, ctsooner said:

I may add a sub to my Quatro. That small upgrade is huge. 

A single Sub Three?  Where would you place it?  Behind you?

How's this work with Quatros and Kentos, for that matter?  Quatros require a 100 Hz high pass filter.  Kentos require 200 Hz.  The subwoofers need 80 Hz.  Perhaps the difference isn't that important with Quatros and Sub Threes, but it's more than an octave with Kentos.  (The 7 series and Sub Nines don't have that discrepancy.)

[ctsooner]

Actually two of them. I’d have to reconfigure. I’ve held off until I can get the new preamp in the system to see if I need or want to go that route. Four would be ideal, but that’s what Kento is for 

[Richard Vandersteen]

5 minutes ago, BKDad said:

A single Sub Three?  Where would you place it?  Behind you?

How's this work with Quatros and Kentos, for that matter?  Quatros require a 100 Hz high pass filter.  Kentos require 200 Hz.  The subwoofers need 80 Hz.  Perhaps the difference isn't that important with Quatros and Sub Threes, but it's more than an octave with Kentos.  (The 7 series and Sub Nines don't have that discrepancy.)

It is very important the high-pass is configured for the speaker being used (Quatro, KENTO or SEVEN).  The SUB THREE and SUB NINE will self-compensate after doing the room tune with the disc appropriate to the SPEAKER.  When using one SUB THREE I would put it in one of the corners behind the main speakers.  One could put the sub behind the listener if the distance to the listener and the sub is slightly further the main speaker are.  Bass is omni directional, but no woofer is perfect (even ours) and some energy (distortion at frequencies which are directional) will escape into the room.  If the distance is similar this problem is minimized and not normally audible.  RV