Vinyl / Turntables

[Richard Vandersteen]

15 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

I have kept an eye out for a used Rhea for about six months (I think based on your recommendation on another thread. ) Used units don’t come up often and are typically $2000+. 

I also considered the new Hegel V10, which is supposed to be outstanding.

"Supposed to be" is worthless, listen to it yourself and verify it is the best choice for the money!

RV

[Holmz]

6 hours ago, ursus13 said:

I have a Hana ML. The output is 0.4mv. Suggested load impedance is 100Ω. (I’m completely new to vinyl, so still learning what all the numbers mean.)

You think a Sutherland is not a good match? Would a Nagra BPS be a good match? The Nagra can do 100, 150, 220, 330, 470 Ω and 1kΩ.

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Almost anything should be a good match impedance wise, and there is no real way to get a listen to a BPS from what I have been able to ascertain. Maybe a dealer, or someone might have one in one the bigger cities, but here in Au the dealer said that they know of no VPS in country.  

The transimpedance style is supposedly best when the output impedance of the cart is low, but I think that the Hana is not a low output impedance… just a low output voltage. And my cart is also not a low output impedance.

I was running an older AR unit before, and it was not night-n-day from that to the VPS on a MM cart. But the VPS does have more gain for MC.
Both sounded stunningly good to me for an older TT. And most people that got a listen could not believe it is was a TT, but they are also not used to higher end TTs.

The one thing about the BPS (and VPS), is that if one wants to be a “power cable denier”, then it gets easy as the battery in the BPS/VPS pretty much has one disconnected from the grid.

Everyone seems to have the idea that the incoming power is a problem for the noise floor, so if it is, then with a 9V battery, one pretty much can ignore the power. In my mind that is a bit more elegant than another thing in the rack to clean up the power. One either uses their battery, or their 12V supply and the system is based upon 12V (DC).

IMO a more pressing concern would be RCA versus balanced.
If your system is using XLRs, then you may not want a BPS.
And if you system is Nagra based then a BPS fits in.

I was looking at the BPS, VPS, Loco, and Sota and SoundSmith have more affordable options.
When the VPS appeared used it pulled me in.
The Jazz took a while to locate, but one good frequent flier points en route to here from Zurich.

$300 for a Sota Pyxi can get you 150 ohms loading, and should make for something to A/B other gear against.
Intellectually I know that is a wise decision. 🤔
One wants to address vibrations, resonances, speed and loading… and the electronics should come in. well after the basics. There is not a lot of magic in amplifying signals, the EE is engineering which is well understood.

[ursus13]

2 hours ago, Holmz said:

Almost anything should be a good match impedance wise, and there is no real way to get a listen to a BPS from what I have been able to ascertain. Maybe a dealer, or someone might have one in one the bigger cities, but here in Au the dealer said that they know of no VPS in country.  

The transimpedance style is supposedly best when the output impedance of the cart is low, but I think that the Hana is not a low output impedance… just a low output voltage. And my cart is also not a low output impedance.

I was running an older AR unit before, and it was not night-n-day from that to the VPS on a MM cart. But the VPS does have more gain for MC.
Both sounded stunningly good to me for an older TT. And most people that got a listen could not believe it is was a TT, but they are also not used to higher end TTs.

The one thing about the BPS (and VPS), is that if one wants to be a “power cable denier”, then it gets easy as the battery in the BPS/VPS pretty much has one disconnected from the grid.

Everyone seems to have the idea that the incoming power is a problem for the noise floor, so if it is, then with a 9V battery, one pretty much can ignore the power. In my mind that is a bit more elegant than another thing in the rack to clean up the power. One either uses their battery, or their 12V supply and the system is based upon 12V (DC).

IMO a more pressing concern would be RCA versus balanced.
If your system is using XLRs, then you may not want a BPS.
And if you system is Nagra based then a BPS fits in.

I was looking at the BPS, VPS, Loco, and Sota and SoundSmith have more affordable options.
When the VPS appeared used it pulled me in.
The Jazz took a while to locate, but one good frequent flier points en route to here from Zurich.

$300 for a Sota Pyxi can get you 150 ohms loading, and should make for something to A/B other gear against.
Intellectually I know that is a wise decision. 🤔
One wants to address vibrations, resonances, speed and loading… and the electronics should come in. well after the basics. There is not a lot of magic in amplifying signals, the EE is engineering which is well understood.

Great info. A Sota Pyxi is a good call, I spent the last hour reading about it via the designer’s white papers and forum posts.

My system is all balanced at the moment (Ayre integrated) but it has some rca inputs, so I should be fine with a single ended phono pre, right? 

The Nagra BPS has me intrigued…

[Holmz]

3 hours ago, Holmz said:

…
Intellectually I know that is a wise decision. 🤔

 

14 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

…

The Nagra BPS has me intrigued…

I assume you know that wisdom was not a driver for me.
Emotion is also “a thing”.

 

14 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

Great info. A Sota Pyxi is a good call, I spent the last hour reading about it via the designer’s white papers and forum posts.

My system is all balanced at the moment (Ayre integrated) but it has some rca inputs, so I should be fine with a single ended phono pre, right? 

…

I dunno - but for $300 you can ease into something that will likely be just fine.
If it isn’t then, you should be able to easily sell it for $150 and not be out a lot of coins.
I would bet that it would be just dandy.

On the more important side of things Jim mentioned a protractor a while back.
Part of me thinks that it is a collossal good idea because one can know where it is set.
The other part thinks that it is  super stupid, as the carts are often out by many degrees, so why set it perfectly if it is going to be off and need to be set by ear?

One of these is where I am heading…
https://www.wallyanalog.com/wallyzenith

Assuming we set it by ear, then we can see what angle was optimal.
And I think that in the grand scheme of things, I would rather that the zenith and Azimuth were correct, well before fretting on the electronics.
And this is because we know that the mechanical errors are real things that degrade the sound/phase/channel-separation.

But the difference between bipolar and valves are a different layer of the onion. IMO - we need to peel back the outer layers, which I think we should do before worrying about the tears that follow.

But if course I got the VPS as soon as it came up, and I have yet to order the protractor.
(Emotions - my friend.)


 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Holmz

[ursus13]

1 hour ago, Holmz said:

 

I assume you know that wisdom was not a driver for me.
Emotion is also “a thing”.

 

I dunno - but for $300 you can ease into something that will likely be just fine.
If it isn’t then, you should be able to easily sell it for $150 and not be out a lot of coins.
I would bet that it would be just dandy.

On the more important side of things Jim mentioned a protractor a while back.
Part of me thinks that it is a collossal good idea because one can know where it is set.
The other part thinks that it is  super stupid, as the carts are often out by many degrees, so why set it perfectly if it is going to be off and need to be set by ear?

One of these is where I am heading…
https://www.wallyanalog.com/wallyzenith

Assuming we set it by ear, then we can see what angle was optimal.
And I think that in the grand scheme of things, I would rather that the zenith and Azimuth were correct, well before fretting on the electronics.
And this is because we know that the mechanical errors are real things that degrade the sound/phase/channel-separation.

But the difference between bipolar and valves are a different layer of the onion. IMO - we need to peel back the outer layers, which I think we should do before worrying about the tears that follow.

But if course I got the VPS as soon as it came up, and I have yet to order the protractor.
(Emotions - my friend.)


 

Wisdom in spades.

And… I have a Dr. Feikert protractor arriving on Sunday. I may order a usb microscope as well.

[Holmz]

@ursus13 I have a project with a former coworker to do measurements and DSP on the carts and LPs.

I’ve been a bit busy for getting time to do it, but I found out last night that he is going to be the new lab chief… so that should make it easier as we’ll be in the same timezone and town.

I’ve digitized a handful of his old LPs on 7” 45s, and the idea is to make a good digital copy out of the scratched up old ones.
The crux of the problem is getting then all in phase, so it is a bit like a loudspeaker. 😎

I have found lately that push bikes can cost a few coins. I am not getting much faster, but maybe I’ll delay passing on the studio gear to the heirs for a while 👼
Just found out last week that one of the fellows that was on this forum for a while is mad into cycling.
I guess most decent hobbies can cost some coin.
 

8 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

Wisdom in spades.

And… I have a Dr. Feikert protractor arriving on Sunday. I may order a usb microscope as well.

I think that the USB scope is helpful for rake and vertical tracking angle (pitch for pilots).
The people that say set it by ear probably have a point as when the angles are off, then you do not want it to be visually angularly perfect… one wants it mechanically perfect.

Please post your progress. You might give me inspiration.

[ursus13]

3 minutes ago, Holmz said:

@ursus13 I have a project with a former coworker to do measurements and DSP on the carts and LPs.

I’ve been a bit busy for getting time to do it, but I found out last night that he is going to be the new lab chief… so that should make it easier as we’ll be in the same timezone and town.

I’ve digitized a handful of his old LPs on 7” 45s, and the idea is to make a good digital copy out of the scratched up old ones.
The crux of the problem is getting then all in phase, so it is a bit like a loudspeaker. 😎

I have found lately that push bikes can cost a few coins. I am not getting much faster, but maybe I’ll delay passing on the studio gear to the heirs for a while 👼
Just found out last week that one of the fellows that was on this forum for a while is mad into cycling.
I guess most decent hobbies can cost some coin.
 

I think that the USB scope is helpful for rake and vertical tracking angle (pitch for pilots).
The people that say set it by ear probably have a point as when the angles are off, then you do not want it to be visually angularly perfect… one wants it mechanically perfect.

Please post your progress. You might give me inspiration.

Thank you. I’ll let you know how it goes. I’d like to hear more about your progress as well.

My other hobbies are cheap by comparison to audio. (Although Brazilian jiujitsu racks up medical costs as I collect injuries. A sweet listening spot is a good place to heal. Maybe hobbies aren’t entirely unrelated.) 

Any resources you can point me to on setting VTA, rake, azimuth, etc. by ear?

[Holmz]

43 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

Thank you. I’ll let you know how it goes. I’d like to hear more about your progress as well.

My other hobbies are cheap by comparison to audio. (Although Brazilian jiujitsu racks up medical costs as I collect injuries. A sweet listening spot is a good place to heal. Maybe hobbies aren’t entirely unrelated.) 

I was speaking with my ski buddy that got in >70 days this season…
I asked him, “did you have any falls?”
He said, “No”… then he said, “hang on, yeah I had one but it was following Bob and he fell too.”

 

43 minutes ago, ursus13 said:

Any resources you can point me to on setting VTA, rake, azimuth, etc. by ear?

Only the stuff on the Wally Tool website… but they are not the “by ears” crowd.

 

TTs are a bit like bicycles.
It is not hyperbole to say that a fit young man or woman can get a steel bike, a pump and jersey and ride 100 miles on a steel framed bike, and that they can do that either in the first week they own it, or at least by the end of some summer training.
Maybe not everyone, but someone pretty fit can do it.

One does not need a carbon framed bike from an Italian manufacture with the most expensive parts.
Sure it looks nice, and is probably somewhat more comfortable.
But if one doesn’t have the fitness, then the money will not make the bike move down the road.
(Now it doesn’t matter how much I spend in coins… I don’t see 100 miles happening without a lot of sweat and puffing for months and months.)

 

Similarly, a TT is can be poorly set up, and will not deliver its potential.
And the most expensive arms are not going to make Harry Potter like magic if one doesn’t know the incantations to get the cart aligned.

I’d like a Dohmann as much as the next fellow or lady, but the truth of it is that the ol Sota can pump out some decent sound.
And a techniques, etc can also do it.
(I think you are on the right “track” with the USB scope and the protractor.)

Some of the errors are a soft function of angle when they get close… more like comparing the sine of -1, 0 and 1. Just go for both directions of bad, and get to the middle. Same applies with errors that are more on the order of a cosine relationship, just get it close and go for the middle ground.

If it all goes south, at least there are a lot of people around that can dial it in… but you should be o’rioght doing it on your own.

Don’t go for emotions…
 

[Richard Vandersteen]

10 hours ago, ursus13 said:

Wisdom in spades.

And… I have a Dr. Feikert protractor arriving on Sunday. I may order a usb microscope as well.

Having tools always help to know more about what is going on however many in the recording (reissue) business I know tell me the stylus rake angle varies on the cutting head.  Use your microscope and know where it is but don't be surprised that changing the VTA still makes a difference on many recordings.  RV

[ursus13]

12 hours ago, Holmz said:

Don’t go for emotions…
 

Hahaha! Photographic proof. (And it’s having an influence in my emotion…)

Thanks for the guidance Holmz and RV.

 

[Holmz]

@ursus13 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649957532-nagra-bps-battery-powered-phono-preamp/

Personally I would rock up down there with 13-15 big green notes and see if they accept it.

It is not that far to San Diego.
I did it once on a bicycle from Huntington Beach back when I was fit.
But I’d take a car these days.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Holmz

[Stringreen]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:41 PM, bkeske said:

Yea, I saw that conversation. I don’t believe that universally regarding knife edge bearings. The Jelco design has no such issues, and got rave reviews when released. 

The Lyra Delos is a very nice cart according to our very own @TomicTime He has one on his Brinkman.

I’ve considered that vs a Benz.

I had a Benz LPS...I liked it better than the Orofon Winfield I have now...it depends on your whole system ....by the way.....what does NEUTR

[bkeske]

21 hours ago, Stringreen said:

I had a Benz LPS...I liked it better than the Orofon Winfield I have now...it depends on your whole system ....by the way.....what does NEUTR

I ended up buying a 'lightly' used Benz Ruby 3 to try out. I like it quite a bit. Actually, very similar sound signature to my Soundsmith's.

Brian

Edited July 3, 2023 by bkeske

[ursus13]

Quick update after ohono stage research:

I spoke with Ayre, they will be releasing a new phono stage later this year. It will include a A/D converter to digitize records. Ayre currently partners with Sutherland for trade shows, etc. and speak highly of 

I spoke with Nagra, they are apparently getting a lot of customer interest in a new BPS phono stage. No current plan for it yet. But say to “stay tuned.”

I messaged with Wyn Palmer, who designed the Sota Pyxi, he is very accessible and answers questions and gives advice. Very cool, very knowledgable guy. The Pyxi is receiving excellent reviews from customers. Very interesting history as a DIY prototype that customers built, and then became the production model Pyxi. Sota pairs it with many different carts (including the Hana ML.) Wyn also designed a more flexible balanced phono pre for Sota releasing this year in the $2500 range.

[ursus13]

Sorry, my last post got mangled...

Meant to say that the folks at Ayre speak highly of Ron Sutherland and really like his phono stages.

I just placed an order for a Sota Pyxi. Thanks @Holmz for the recommendation. I'll let you know how it is.

[ursus13]

To close the loop on this thread:

I ended up with a previously owned Rega P10, a new Hana ML, and a new Sota Pyxi phono pre.

Thanks to everyone for the insightful discussion and help along the way.

(I'd like to have a thread to journal my adventures as I set up the turntable, cart, etc., and to have a place to ask questions. Should I continue in this thread or start a new "set up" thread?)

[ctsooner]

Start a new one. Keeps it separate I’m case someone has follow up here. 

[GdnrBob]

I am always amazed by how our digital interactions provide so much great information that can be shared for the benefit of the many.

When I recall having to do papers for college and all the source material was unavailable because another student was holding it, it makes my blood boil.

Though now students can use AI chat bots.

Ah, progress...

B

[ctsooner]

Yup, progress Bob.  

[GdnrBob]

1 hour ago, ctsooner said:

Yup, progress Bob.

Guess what, it will get sorted out, eventually. 

Kind of like that Tex Antoine saying from years ago. Though it was an unfortunate reuse of an old saying...

{For those that didn't grow up in the Northeast, Tex made a horrible comment on a horrible crime in the '70's. Google it, but be prepared to be shocked, much like a quote from Earl Butz}.

Sorry if I offend, but I guess I have lived too long, and still remember... everything.

B

[ursus13]

On 6/30/2023 at 6:31 AM, John Gallup said:

I'm using a Sutherland TZ Direct with a Lyra Etna Lambda and getting plenty of great sound out of it, along with some background noise. (The background is definitely not coming from the pre-amp, as we tested it separately at the dealer.) Ron Sutherland is very helpful and can probably tell you whether any particular cart would work with one of his pre-amps.

Considering a Sutherland Little Loco phono pre. I spoke with Chad at Sutherland, since Ron is away this week. Trying to arrange an in home demo.

Did you have any more popping issues with the Sutherland after upgrading your Rega P3 to the P10?

Also curious about  the lauded Manly Chinook phono pre. I have a buddy who just bought one and I may borrow it.

Right now I’m borrowing a ProJect Tube Box S3, which got me up and running and sounds good (I have nit had the chance to compare it to anything else.)

I bought a Sota Pyxi, after messaging with the designer Wyn Palmer. It arrived on Saturday, but I could not eliminate a buzz/hum. Possibly a ground loop or RF interference. Wyn recommended either moving my wifi router, which isn’t an option, or grounding the Pyxi to my preamp, which is also not an option. Wyn said the next iteration will use op amps that are less probe to RF interference. I’ve opted to return the unit and get on the list for the next version.

I’m still phono stage hunting…

[John Gallup]

1 hour ago, ursus13 said:

Did you have any more popping issues with the Sutherland after upgrading your Rega P3 to the P10?

I don't, because I also upgraded to a Sutherland TZ-Direct. The P10 has a substantial power supply box that apparently stops the pops. 😁

[ursus13]

17 hours ago, John Gallup said:

I don't, because I also upgraded to a Sutherland TZ-Direct. The P10 has a substantial power supply box that apparently stops the pops. 😁

Replace and upgrade both. Good solution!

How did you land on the Sutherland transimpedance pre? Did you audition it in your system?

[John Gallup]

3 hours ago, ursus13 said:

How did you land on the Sutherland transimpedance pre? Did you audition it in your system?

My previous phono pre was a Rogue Audio Ares, with the Magnum upgrade and NOS tubes. I liked the sound but the dip switches that controlled the cart were under a cover and inaccessible in my setup without taking a lot of things apart. I upgraded to the Little Loco on the basis of (1) Herb Reichert's review in Stereophile, which I can't find a link to; (2) my dealer's recommendation, and (3) the fact that it has no switches at all, not even on-off. I liked it enough that when my dealer recommended the TZ Direct, and offered me the equivalent of a full refund on the Little Loco, I just did it. No auditions.

I may not be  the smartest consumer, but I am a happy listener.

[Holmz]

2 hours ago, John Gallup said:

My previous phono pre was a Rogue Audio Ares, with the Magnum upgrade and NOS tubes. I liked the sound but the dip switches that controlled the cart were under a cover and inaccessible in my setup without taking a lot of things apart. I upgraded to the Little Loco on the basis of (1) Herb Reichert's review in Stereophile, which I can't find a link to; (2) my dealer's recommendation, and (3) the fact that it has no switches at all, not even on-off. I liked it enough that when my dealer recommended the TZ Direct, and offered me the equivalent of a full refund on the Little Loco, I just did it. No auditions.

I may not be  the smartest consumer, but I am a happy listener.

Does it sound any different?